Jorge Silva on horizontal structures and participatory culture at 10Pines

Ep. 52


Jorge Silva is the co-founder of 10Pines, a self-managing software development company in Argentina. We talk about three key practices they have as a horizontal organisation, what they’re learning, and Jorge’s vision to spread this way of working in South America.

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Lisa Gill: Jorge, thank you for coming on the podcast. First of all, I thought we could start by - you shared with me when we spoke before - you have quite a fun way of describing when you speak at events, how 10Pines is a little bit different, and why you're organised that way. So maybe you could share that with listeners to start with?

Jorge Silva: Sure. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for having me here. I'm a really big fan of Leadermorphosis so it's an honour to be here. And thank you for introducing me.

So I like to start talking with a game when I talk about 10Pines and how we see our business and the culture and company. And the game is about a fight with your thumbs.

Lisa Gill: Yeah, thumb wars!

Jorge Silva: And here it’s a really popular game when you are a kid. It’s a game I saw for the first time here at a TEDx event by Mariano Sigman. And the idea is that you fight with another person. And the objective is to make as many points as you can in one minute. So this is the only rule. And you have to fight with the other one with your eyes closed, and you can't talk. So it's a really interesting game and you play two rounds.

So the first time what happened is that everyone started fighting with each other to make at least one point. And most of the time, people get like two or three points maximum. So when you do this the second time, what happens is that you re-mark again the target, the objective, and you remember then that they don't have to win against each other, they just have to make as many points as they can. So then people start to understand the game.

And they start collaborating with each other, and they let the other one win - they win one time, and then they go back. And then with that, the points start to raise like 20 points or 30 points, each one.

So the idea here is that this has like two main insights or learning points. The first one is that collaboration is better than competition, and this is far away from a romantic view of collaboration. Because empirically, you can see that when you collaborate with the other, you have more points.

And the other insight that is interesting is what is called a zero-sum game fallacy. The idea of the fallacy is that when you are talking about zero-sum games, the best strategy is to compete. A zero sum game is like a basketball game, a chess game, a football game. And in those cases of games, you have to compete.

But there are not only zero-sum games in real life. You have a lot of other types of games when you talk about game theory, right. So there are other games that are non-zero-sum games. And in those cases, the best strategy is to collaborate. There is a really popular game called the Prisoner's Dilemma. And in those types of games, you have to collaborate to have a better performance.

So the idea, and so the fallacy is, that most of the time - when you don't know this kind of new situation in real life - what is happening is that you tend to compete. Because you think that it's a zero-sum game. So the idea here is to try to understand or to figure out which situations in real life are a zero-sum game, and which ones are not, in order to get a better performance. Because if you are competing in a no zero-sum game, you are going to have a bad performance.

And this is a really interesting philosophy in economics, because it is interesting to think about the economy and if it is a zero-sum game or not. And if we have to compete, or collaborate. And if we collaborate, are we going to have a better performance or not? But the idea is to see what happens in a company. If a company is a zero-sum game or not, and...whether to compete or collaborate.

So...our premise is that a company is a non-zero-sum game. Collaboration is better for having a better performance in all aspects. So we created this company with this idea - with the idea of collaboration. Because...we think it's the best way to do things, and it's the proper way to do things. It is a better way of having a better performance in these kinds of scenarios. So this is the introduction to why we do the things we do.

Lisa Gill: Yeah, it's so true. I think so many examples of companies, like outdated ways of thinking about organisations is like this zero-sum game. That there are winners and losers...I think about recruitment situations and competing...In fact, someone once described it as two people sitting across the table lying to each other in order to get a job.

Jorge Silva: Yeah, the analogy...well, the obvious analogy is if you have to fight for a piece of the pie. Or we can make the pie bigger and have a smaller piece of pie, right. So this is like an analogy for these kinds of things. You can compete for happiness - a small slice of pie - or you can collaborate to get a bigger pie and have a smaller amount, but in comparison with the other one it is bigger.

So this is what we think in terms of also the profit of the company, right? Because we have a policy to share with other staff. We think of making the pie bigger. And maybe as a...founder or as a shareholder, I am going to have - in percentage - a little bit less than if I have the whole share of the company. But we are going to have a better performance. So this is kind of the idea, right?

Lisa Gill: Yeah. Maybe Could you tell us about some of the practices that you've developed over the years. Because I know that you started about 10 years ago, and you were around four people. And now you've about 80 plus people, I think?

Jorge Silva: 85, yeah, right now... a lot of people.

Lisa Gill: Yeah. And I guess that also brings challenges with it as you grow and so on. For listeners, if they came to visit 10Pines, I guess, pre pandemic - what would we notice? What would feel different?

Jorge Silva: Well, in order to have an idea of how we work, I feel proud of three practices that summarise all the culture and how we see the management of the company. The first one is that we make decisions in a collaborative way. And we use concerns - like in Sociocracy. The idea is that when you propose something, you look for objections, and an objection is someone that strongly disagrees with the idea. And what we try to do is to integrate that objection into the proposal. So the first one is consent, and this is a powerful tool for us. Because what we try to do is not that everyone agrees, but they don't disagree with the proposal, and this is important. And we also use, sometimes, advice processes - like in Laloux's book. And we also use Loomio, for the menial decisions and the more imperative decisions. This is the first practice that is important for us.

The second one is: in order for you to make good decisions or to take good decisions, you need information. So we have an aggressive open book management, where everyone knows all the numbers of the company, all the other financial numbers of the company - in terms of income, and how much money we pay for the office, and even how much we're spending on salaries. So everyone knows the salary of everyone.

And this is interesting, too, because when you first think about that, most of the time, you think that this will be a mess, and everyone is going to fight each other. But it is the opposite. And we even had a case when we were proposing a person to have a raise in salary - they rejected it, because when he saw how he's going to be in the scale of different salaries, he wasn't comfortable with that. So he preferred to postpone the decision to when he felt more comfortable with that. So it's an interesting side-effect that you never expect to happen. But with the proper context, I think it is part of the magic of this kind of organisation.

And the last one I think - that is the practice that closes this kind of circle - is the profit sharing. We share 50% of our earnings in the year with everyone. We have different criteria to share that profit - we have a formula to distribute that because we always try to do some kind of fair trading and not an equalitarian sharing. So this is something that we try to have clear when you're working in a horizontal way or in a flat structure - we don't want to treat everyone the same because we understand that we are not the same. But we have to try to have fair policies on free trade to everyone. So this is the idea behind that. So I think that the practices that are most important for us are those three. And they are related to each other and they support each other.

Lisa Gill: Is there like a panel of people that have decided the criteria for the profit sharing, for example, and a group that also makes decisions about salaries - is that how that works?

Jorge Silva: Well actually it works like a kind of Sociocratic model. It is interesting because when we started the company, we never heard about Sociocracy but we ended up with a very similar model. We have circles - we call them work groups - and we have a work group or a circle for practically everything. Every time we have to share the annual profit, we create a circle, and then anyone that wants can join the circle and discuss the formula and how we are going to distribute. So yes, every single circle is open for everyone to join. And if you are interested in that, you can join. The critical issue here is to balance all of your time in different circles because sometimes you are so excited to start working in different circles and you end up in too many circles and this is too much work.

Lisa Gill: On that note, you mentioned three key practices that make up your culture and the way that you're organised. I'm wondering what you're learning in terms of - not so much in terms of structures and processes - but in terms of the skills or the mindset that's needed in order to work in this more self-managed way?

Jorge Silva: Well, yeah, I think that we were thinking about that a lot. One important thing to mention before is that not everyone can work in this way, right? And this is something that we have to accept, and it's okay. But if you think that you can work this way, or you want to work this way, I think that one of the skills that you need is to be proactive. And the other one is to be accountable. Proactive, because it's a company that is moving because the people do the things, and there is no way to complain and to criticise, because it's real that you are part of the solution. So here we have a culture that we don't allow people to complain in terms of “well, I don't like that, I like that.” Because if you don't like something, if you see a problem or if you are uncomfortable with something, you have all the tools to modify that and to solve that. You can ask for a budget, you can ask for opinions, you can make decisions. So you have all the tools. So you have to be proactive - the only thing that you have to do is to solve it. So proactivity is one of the skills that is necessary.

And accountability is because this only works if you take responsibility for your actions, right? If you fail, you have to be humble, otherwise you will not learn and people will not trust in you. So accountability is really important because we have a culture that we - in the bottom line - we have to be based on trust, so we worked really hard on trust and to create trust and to take care of trust because it's like you know... Amy Edmondson, I saw you have a podcast with her. So the psychologically safe environment, I think, is one of the important things that you have to create and take care of, and it's really hard to create that kind of context - and it's really easy to lose it.

So one of the other aspects that is important in this kind of culture and in this kind of company is to take care of trust, you know - it's really important for us. And the last thing that I think we look for from people is to share the same values. To share transparency, to share trust. And excellence from a technical point of view, and all the set of values that we share, because you can't work with other people who don't share your values, it's really hard.

Lisa Gill: Yeah, and I guess a key part of those qualities or characteristics is recruitment. And I know that you're quite proud of the way that you do recruitment - it's quite a thorough process. Maybe you could share with listeners how you hire people?

Jorge Silva: Well, actually our recruiting process was inspired by Semco - they were one of our inspirations in the beginning of design. So we have a really intense recruitment process - it has three stages. The first on is: we try to get candidates from people that we already know. So we have the first filter, then we have a first meeting where we understand their needs, we understand the expectations, we tell them how we work, our culture, all the all important things.

And after that, if we are okay with that, we send them a technical exercise. They go to his or her house to work on that exercise, and they have to solve it alone. And we trust them that they are going to work with that alone. And then they come back to the company and we have a discussion about the exercise and we try to criticise it, to propose some changes, and try to understand how they think.

And after that we have - if everything goes well - a group interview where everyone in the company is allowed to come. Sometimes you have like a 40 person interview with a candidate! And it's interesting because we ask them afterwards: are you willing to work with that person in the future? And if you agree with that, if you don't have any problems, at least from what you see in this interview, we hire.

And what happens sometimes is that it is not only one person who sees something that they are not comfortable with. Most of the time there are two or three people who say “I don't feel comfortable because of this or that, I see that this person has this type of reaction” or whatever. It's an interesting way of involving people in hiring. And it's important that you have the chance to choose your teammates, right? I think this is the most important thing. One of the things that happened whenever I was working in other companies was that I never chose my teammates, and sometimes they choose for me and they don't choose the best ones. So this is a really, really big problem in other companies. And I think it's at least an interesting approach - it is not perfect, but it's better than the other.

Lisa Gill: Yeah, definitely. What have been some of the challenges? Like have you found people, even though you have a thorough recruitment process, have you found that some people join and find it challenging to adapt to this way of working – you know, high accountability, high responsibility?

Jorge Silva: Well, yeah, sometimes what happens in our company is that we work with a lot of people that are in one of their first jobs. And we work with a lot of young people, like myself. And what happens is that everything is new for them, sometimes. So it's interesting that they are like...intoxicated.

I have a friend that uses this analogy. Sometimes when you work for a long time in a company that is, I don't know, toxic, you get intoxicated. And sometimes this process is reversible, and sometimes it is not. So if you are working for two or three years, it is reversible, you can roll-back that effect on you. But if you are working for maybe 10, 15, 20 years in that kind of company, it is going to be really hard because you are infected. And it's really hard to get away from that kind of behaviour. So we don't have these kinds of people - most of the time we have people that are in their first job, or one of the first. So they are really fresh in terms of how they should behave or work in a company. And it's really easy in that kind of respect for people to work.

But we have had some cases - and most of the time, they take like, I don't know, six months or a year to start understanding the culture that they don't have a boss, they have to be proactive - and they don't have to look for validation from the boss. But in the end, I think they understand the idea and the culture, and it's interesting how people can change their behaviour when you change the context, right? And this is one of the best ideas that we can see here. Sometimes people tend to behave that way because of the context, not because they are that way. So if you change the context, they are going to behave in a different way. And it's really powerful.

Lisa Gill: Yeah, I've heard that before: that if you get people who haven't been corrupted by a traditional top-down organisation, it's in some ways easier for them to integrate, and they don't have so much to unlearn.

Jorge Silva: Yeah, right. Right now we are working with companies to help them to work in a similar way to us. So we are working on that right now, and trying to see what happens, and to validate if they can change or how much they can change and how much they don't. So it's a really interesting experiment for me to see how this goes. So I will tell you in the future.

Lisa Gill: So you're trying to kind of teach this way of working that you've developed to other companies?

Jorge Silva: Yeah. There are a lot of people interested in our way and we were creating a community here in South America and in Argentina. Some companies started to say, “Hey I want to do that, I want to do the same as you are. I'm interested in that.” So we were thinking that maybe we should start doing some kind of help others have a healthy environment and a healthy job. And in order to do that, I think that this is aligned with our purpose too. So we...had like a year working on that. And it's really recent, yes, but it's interesting to help others to have an environment that works.

Lisa Gill: I'm curious to know, what have you as a co-founder learnt in terms of being a leader in a company with no bosses? What have you found challenging? What have you found surprising?

Jorge Silva: Well, yeah, it's an interesting question... I can't imagine working in a company or leading a company or leading a team in another way compared to what is happening right now. I really believe in the power of the crowd, the wisdom of the crowd. I really believe in that. And sometimes I think that I can't do this alone - I need to validate my ideas and to validate things with others and to have a better approach or a complementary view of the problem. So as a leader, I think that it's really important to... have the opinions and the involvement of others. So I think that this is one of the things that I have learned over time. I was in theory sure of that. But seeing that in practice is really nice. And it's really comfortable. Yeah, I think this is one of the ideals that I have.

And the other thing is that sometimes it will be really hard because when you start thinking in a flat structure, I really have to propose everything that I have in my mind. I can't do anything just because I'm the co-founder, right? So I have to think about how to present things, how to propose things. And everything that I want to do, I have to propose it. And I think it's interesting because it forces me to think about the things that I want to do, and how to convince people that this is a nice idea. And I have to be humble enough to understand that maybe I'm wrong. And I think that this kind of approach makes me stronger. So I think that is interesting, but it's not easy. It's not easy, because you have to deal with yourself, right?

Lisa Gill: Yeah, I guess it can be kind of confronting sometimes - realising, wow, before I would have just leaned on the fact that I'm the co-founder, and we're doing this because I say so!

Jorge Silva: Yeah. So I think this is one of the learning points that I have. And it's really interesting when I say to other co-founders from other companies - and they are hierarchical - and they just understand how you go and say “do something”. They can understand how you can do that. And they can't see how to do it in another way. So it's, yeah, it's really interesting.

Lisa Gill: I know that you're trying to gather other companies in South America that are organised in a similar way. And I know you have found a few, but you're hoping to find more. Do you think this way of working comes naturally or easily in terms of the culture in Argentina, for example?

Jorge Silva: Well, I think that it's going to be the way of working in the future. So I think it's going to be natural in the future - in the near future, or, right now in some industries and some companies. So definitely, I think it's going to be more natural than today. Because it's more aligned with the way of how new generations are going to see life, to move with work. So, definitely, I think it's going to be the natural way of working.

And in terms of Argentina and South America - yeah, we are trying to create a community here. I don't know if we have a lot of companies, but a lot of interesting people or people who are interested in these kinds of companies. And I think that we are working on creating this kind of culture here, and these kinds of organisations and companies here, at least in the IT industry. That is the industry that we are a part of. And yeah, we have a lot of companies in Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Mexico - I was talking with my parents a lot about this.

I think that the most important thing to solve here is to visualise that we exist. And that there are companies in South America that are working in this way. Because we have a lot of bibliographies and books and articles that come from the US and Europe and sometimes you tend to think that this is only happening in the US, or this is only happening in Europe. But we have a lot of examples here in South America and we need other companies and people to know that they exist, in order to inspire them. So this is one of the drivers for the community.

And the second one is to generate content, or create content. Because when we created the company, we didn't get books or other materials to manage a company in the traditional way. Sometimes you see, or you can feel that this is not the proper way to do things but you can't find another way. So you go to the classics. But if you start to see that there are a lot of other ways to do this - Sociocracy, Teal, Holacracy, whatever and we start creating content, this matters. Right now we have a lot of books, but if you go to school or to university, it's really hard for you to see this kind of content, right? So I think that we have to push more on that. And we are doing this in Argentina, and in South America. So I hope it's going to work.

Lisa Gill: Yeah - that's why I'm so happy that you reached out to me, because I'm also always looking for stories that are beyond, you know, the usual ones that we hear from the US and Europe. And so I'm really happy that you're taking that on as your mission - to share stories and to spread the word and to teach people, you know, what you're learning so that they can be inspired and try things too.

Jorge Silva: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Lisa Gill: I guess on that note, what kinds of things are you sharing with these people who come to you interested in experimenting with this way of working? What are the essential pieces?

Jorge Silva: You mean, like, what do I think is necessary to work this way?

Lisa Gill: Yeah, like... for example, you said that a lot of co-founders you speak to are kind of shocked by the idea of “well, what do you mean, you can't just tell them what to do?!”. So, you know, if someone comes to you and says I'm interested in this way of working, and you say, okay, but you would need to do this thing. And they say, oh I don't know if I want to do that. And then you think, maybe this is not going to work. What are the deal breakers - the things that you need to do, otherwise this way of working is not going to last?

Jorge Silva: Well I think sometimes when they come to us, and they start talking about resources, and people as resources, I say - yep, this is not the way. But I think that the most important thing is that you have to trust in people and you have to trust in your co-workers or employees. I think that this is one of the main aspects of of this transformation. You have to think that people are not dumb, and you don't have to control them and to tell them what to do. You have to try to treat them like an adult. So I think one of the basic aspects of this is that you have to trust people - you have to have faith in people, and not in a romantic way. But in a way that they know something, they know things that you don't know, and you have to understand your position - and not because you are a boss or you have money or you have whatever - you are in a position of knowing everything and knowing what the other has to do. And I think that you have to trust and be humble. So I think that this is one of the basic skills or aspects that you have to solve in order to start thinking, well, how can we transform for that? Because trust, I think, is the basis for every form of transformation in this model, right?

So yeah - actually we say in 10Pines that we are based on trust. And every policy and everything is built from that. For example, one time, we had a really big discussion about... the medical insurance that we have to have because it was good for older people. And other insurance was good for younger people, or for people that have kids, and we couldn't find one insurance for everyone. And the solution was to say “Ok, let's do it so that everyone can have his own insurance, and we leave the decision for the people to choose”. And you can trust that they are going to choose the best suitable medical insurance for them, and that they are not going to abuse that decision. And it was the best decision because people start to save money and to be really critical on what medical insurance to have. So when you invert control to the people around you and give the responsibility to them, I think it's the best scenario. So I think that this is one of the basic and powerful ideas.

Lisa Gill: Yeah, I really like that. And it's so simple, and it takes such a weight off. In a traditional company, you'd have some person in HR, I guess, trying to administrate that, spending hours trying to find the policy, and then getting all these complaints and requests and stuff. And if you decentralise it, and you have this principle of trust, then it's so much easier for everyone.

Jorge Silva: Yeah, well, actually, we don't have support staff members. We don't have HR people, we don't have financial people, we don't have salespeople. We do that by ourselves. And I think it's one of the great decisions that we made in the beginning. Because everyone understands, and everyone has the responsibility to take care of the human resources. And I think if you're going to work in a company, you have to take care of that - you can make decisions without taking in several aspects of the decision. So I think it's healthy to not have these kinds of support roles. I know it's a controversial statement. But in this kind of company, where we're like at 80, 85, 100 people, I think it's possible to do it this way. Or at least re-think or be critical on that.

Lisa Gill: Yeah, I like the idea of distributing those responsibilities. I remember that in 10Pines, it's also possible for people - in addition to their day job, their normal role - that people can also choose to be coaches and coach other colleagues. How does that work?

Jorge Silva: Well, since we are like plants because of pines - everyone is a pine - we have a gardener. We call it the gardener. And it's a person who is like a coach, a person that helps you to get feedback from your teammates. Who helps you to see your future and how to evolve in the company, and help you in terms of how to see the culture and how to understand the culture. What can you do or what you should do. It's like a personal coach. And as soon as you get into the company, you choose your gardener and it's going to help you in different aspects of the company.

It's... a really important aspect in terms of the salaries. Because we don't have a policy where your boss has to choose you for raising your salary, because we don't have bosses. But instead of that we invert control again, and you have to propose if you are ready for a raise in salary. And in order to do that you have to talk and discuss it with your gardener. And what he or she is going to do is to ask you questions so you can see and understand if you are ready for the raise. So if you think you're ready, you have to propose it - and that's it. So important to be a gardener in this respect because it's like, it's your personal coach that is helping you. And this is a really big challenge for everyone, because everyone potentially can be a gardener. And it's a challenge for us to train and to give the tools to the gardeners to understand their role, and what they can do. So one of the big challenges right now is to find tools and to give them tools to do a better job in terms of gardening.

Lisa Gill: Can you share, like, one or two examples of the kinds of tools or training that you're giving to your gardeners?

Jorge Silva: Well, right now we are doing conflict training. Giving feedback. Non-violent conversations. Yeah, I think this is one of the biggest trainings that we are doing right now. We are also working a lot in the onboarding process so they can understand what to expect from a gardener. I think this is one of the biggest challenges where we are working right now.

Lisa Gill: What are some of the other big challenges or big questions that you're asking at the moment - you know, particularly as you continue to grow. What are some things where you're thinking, okay, that's something we need to develop or explore?

Jorge Silva: Well, one of the typical problems that this flatter organisation has is how people grow in a flat organisation, right? Because you can grow in terms of hierarchy. Sometimes most people understand growing in terms of scaling positions in a hierarchy. So one of the challenges is to work around that, and know how to deal with that. And I'm starting to move to a purpose-driven company, where you try to help people to find their purpose and to achieve that purpose. And help them in the company to get that purpose. And sometimes it's going to be, to grow - whatever that means. And sometimes it will be to, I don't know, to be a great developer and a great father, or mother, and sometimes it will be to, I don't know, make a social impact and so forth.

But I think what we have to understand is that not everybody wants to grow, in terms of, hierarchically. And it's ok - and we have to find a way to make them happy at work. So maybe happy sounds too hippie. But yeah, I think that instead of talking about happiness, I like to talk about purpose and to find their purpose and to achieve that purpose. And I think this is the way that people are going to stay in the company and feel part of that.

Lisa Gill: Yeah - what is your hope for 10Pines in the future?

Jorge Silva: Well, one of my hopes or ambitions is to... it's not the best word right now because of the pandemic crisis, but to spread the virus of the flat structure, and the self-managing team. I think we were doing this with a lot of companies. We have a lot of companies that are being created right now - and they say, I want to work that way. So I think that this is really nice - to inspire others to do the same. Sometimes we think that it is not necessary for us to grow, but to, but to have a lot of companies that copy our model. And I prefer that instead of growing. And I think that if we have more companies working in that way, in a more human way, and with a more human approach, I think the world is going to be better. Because they are going to have a more complete vision, they are going to perform better. So if we can achieve that more companies work that way, it's going to be great. So this is one of my hopes - that most, that more companies copy that kind of model.

And the other, I think, is my hope that we can find ways for people in the company to multiply this model - and if they want to create another company to make a spin-off, they can do it. This is one of the ideas that we are working towards and trying to figure it out. We don't know how to do it. But we are trying to figure it out. Because we want to go to an organic way of growing instead of getting bigger and bigger and bigger with people. But to try to create an ecosystem or like you know, the neural network, kind of approach - this is the interesting way of growing or expanding. So I think this is one of my hopes.

Lisa Gill: Inspiring. I really like that. So in starting to wrap-up our conversation, I guess, I'm thinking about, you know, it's a strange time we're in the midst of this pandemic - and I'm wondering if perhaps you could share some some final thoughts with listeners that might offer some ray of hope, in terms of how this way of working has served you and your colleagues in this time of crisis, or what people can take with them?

Jorge Silva: Yeah, I was thinking about that. Well, one thing is, I think that this kind of crisis is forcing us to collaborate. And I think that this is an interesting idea. Because right now you depend on others, you really depend on others to stay healthy and to stay safe. And this is interesting, because you have to trust, you have to trust that others don’t go out and stay at home. And you have to collaborate with others to do your groceries, or you have to share your new discoveries on the vaccine. And I think that this is a really good example of how collaboration works better than competing. Because in order to make the world go back to normality, we need everyone to collaborate. And if we don't go that way, it is really hard to get rid of this virus. So I think one of the learning points here is that collaboration really is a game where you perform better.

And the other thing is, sometimes when we talk about these kinds of ideas, and these kinds of crazy policies and other stuff, people tend to think that this is overwhelming or to think this is pretty impossible for me or my job, or we can’t do that - it is impossible. And the message here is that you have to start with little things, with small things, with a small experiment - learn, try again, and so on. And I think this is the magic of evolving, right? You have to at least try to do something small enough. And, and then continue. And I really like a quote from an Uruguayan writer, Eduardo Galeano, who says that many small people in small places doing small things can change the world. And I think that this is the idea. Doing the small changes - if we all make small changes, we are going to change the world. And this is the thought that I want to share - that you don't have to do big things. If you do small things, you are going to change the world.