Self Management

... the goal of that paper was really to try to engage in a dialogue between the research and the theory on efforts to decentralise authority, to foster self-management, and the practice of seeing organisations like Zappos, like Valve, like Morning Star - many of these well known cases that are out there and really t...more

...ipatory decision-making, that were at an organisational level, but they weren't quite as radical in their efforts to decentralise authority as these 'self-managing organisations' as we call them, as they were. And so it felt like there just really wasn't a clear articulation of what this phenomenon was, and so o...more

...re. And so it felt like there just really wasn't a clear articulation of what this phenomenon was, and so our goal was to really try to define what a self-managing organisation is and to propose: here's a research agenda for why we think it's important to study them, what can we learn from them, and what are the...more

...Lisa Gill: And how would you define 'a self-managing organisation'? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about self-management, and a lot of people are saying: "Oh, this is a self-managed org...more

...Lisa Gill: And how would you define 'a self-managing organisation'? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about self-management, and a lot of people are saying: "Oh, this is a self-managed organisation", or "we're self-managed" - I think there's a bit of a grey area there. So ...more

...h, this is a self-managed organisation", or "we're self-managed" - I think there's a bit of a grey area there. So what would be your definition of 'a self-managing organisation'? Michael Y. Lee: I would say there are (in my opinion), two fundamental features of self-managing organisations: one is the self-manage...more

...o what would be your definition of 'a self-managing organisation'? Michael Y. Lee: I would say there are (in my opinion), two fundamental features of self-managing organisations: one is the self-management piece, and we define that as what we call 'radically decentralising authority'. So there's many different w...more

...lf-managing organisation'? Michael Y. Lee: I would say there are (in my opinion), two fundamental features of self-managing organisations: one is the self-management piece, and we define that as what we call 'radically decentralising authority'. So there's many different ways that organisations can decentralise au...more

...ut how they go about accomplishing a project or a task. But the rest of the organisation is still fundamentally a hierarchical structure, and so with self-managing organisations, that radical decentralisation of authority really applies to everyone in the organisation: from the bottom to the most senior leaders ...more

...Lisa Gill: I'm wondering, just as a quick aside, because a lot of people complain to me about the term 'self-managing organisation' - partly because they don't know what it means, or it's not immediately obvious, or some people think it means something about managing...more

.... As someone that was pulling together all this different research, did you have any debates about what term you should use? And why did you land on 'self-managing organisations'? Michael Y. Lee: Yeah. So I think we did really think about and consider what other terms we could adequately and most appropriately c...more

...less organisations', because I think it's very clear what that means and I think really dovetails nicely with our conception or definition of what 'a self-managing organisation' is. So I think that's another term that, in my mind, I use somewhat informally as a kind of substitute for self-managing organisations....more

...ion of what 'a self-managing organisation' is. So I think that's another term that, in my mind, I use somewhat informally as a kind of substitute for self-managing organisations....more

...'s quite good shorthand, isn't it? I'm wondering in this paper and perhaps in your research more broadly, what would you say are the key pieces for a self-managing organisation to work? Like, what are some of the elements that organisations and people would need to work on in order to really have it be effective...more

...rk on in order to really have it be effective and functioning? Michael Y. Lee: Yeah, it's a great question. I think my perspective, interestingly, on self-management is that, in many ways, self-management and self-managing organisations are really trying to incorporate, essentially, just effective management, good...more

...ective and functioning? Michael Y. Lee: Yeah, it's a great question. I think my perspective, interestingly, on self-management is that, in many ways, self-management and self-managing organisations are really trying to incorporate, essentially, just effective management, good, effective management that I think eve...more

...ng? Michael Y. Lee: Yeah, it's a great question. I think my perspective, interestingly, on self-management is that, in many ways, self-management and self-managing organisations are really trying to incorporate, essentially, just effective management, good, effective management that I think every organisation ou...more

...od, effective management that I think every organisation out there is seeking. So in many ways, I think what enables or what are the pieces that make self-management work, are similar to the types of things that would make any organisation a well-run, well-managed organisation. So I think, as an example, you need ...more

...structures and processes and practices at a collective level to both facilitate, I think, coordination and collaboration, which is a bigger issue for self-managing organisations, because self-managing organisations fundamentally trade off some level of control at a collective level for greater freedom at the ind...more

...s at a collective level to both facilitate, I think, coordination and collaboration, which is a bigger issue for self-managing organisations, because self-managing organisations fundamentally trade off some level of control at a collective level for greater freedom at the individual level. So you need the struct...more

...ou need the structures and processes and practices to compensate for that, and to facilitate coordination. But I think also, the things you need in a self-managing organisation, or what these structures and processes can also facilitate is to help reinforce the underlying principles of self-management, and reinf...more

...ou need in a self-managing organisation, or what these structures and processes can also facilitate is to help reinforce the underlying principles of self-management, and reinforce the shift in authority. Because I think what we do know from research in organiaations and management is that, power, even once it's b...more

... operates very much like a traditional formal hierarchy. And so I think that that similar dynamic occurs in any organisation that's trying to adopt a self-managing structure. And so these structures and processes can also help to reinforce and mitigate that tendency for power to recentralise....more

...Lisa Gill: Yeah, and I know that your dissertation recently, a big focus of that was holacracy which is obviously a self-management system designed to help create those structures and processes so that we don't slip back into all power hierarchies. But we'll come back to holacracy...more

...eading a two day program at Harvard on collaborative leadership and building organisations for the future. So what are your thoughts on leadership in self-managing organisations when there are no bosses? What does leadership look like and how can we cultivate the kind of leadership skills that are needed in thes...more

...taphors. One is the metaphor of 'the Architect' - and so we think of one role of the leader as building the right structures and processes to support self-management, to support empowerment. And I think that this is based on or challenges the often misguided notion that structures are inherently restrictive and co...more

...t once we have some sense of the frame in which we can operate, that actually helps us exercise, be more creative in that example, but in the case of self-management, I think that the structures can actually help individuals exercise more discretion, exercise more freedom. So, it's about defining and figuring out ...more

... exercise more freedom. So, it's about defining and figuring out what is the right balance of structure to, I think, both facilitate that freedom and self-management, but also to help guide and constrain that so that there is the effective coordination of work. Fundamentally, organisations are about getting colle...more

...ork done, so that is something that these structures can support. The second metaphor is that of 'the Conductor'. And so for a leader, I think, in a self-managing organisation, they have to realise and sort of adjust to the fact that rather than there being a boss, subordinate relationship, it's much more engag...more

...e to realise and sort of adjust to the fact that rather than there being a boss, subordinate relationship, it's much more engaging with each other as self-managing professionals: independent, self-managing professionals, where no individual is the boss, but rather, the work itself becomes the boss. And so, I thi...more

...t that rather than there being a boss, subordinate relationship, it's much more engaging with each other as self-managing professionals: independent, self-managing professionals, where no individual is the boss, but rather, the work itself becomes the boss. And so, I think when you think about an orchestra condu...more

...in the orchestra, in the ensemble piece, and they're the experts at what they do. But what the conductor does do is help bring all of these different self-managing professionals together so that their work can work together nicely as a whole. And then the last, I think, metaphor is that of 'the Coach'. So the l...more

...onals together so that their work can work together nicely as a whole. And then the last, I think, metaphor is that of 'the Coach'. So the leader in self-managing organisations, it's very much about creating a learning environment where people feel safe to experiment, make mistakes, but also that there is accou...more

...ity, but it's very much different from a boss. So I think that those three metaphors are the way I think we think, and I think about leadership in a self-managing structure: Architect, Conductor or Coach, and in many ways, I think, going back to my response to the earlier question, these are, I think, good temp...more

...k these are in many ways, the same principles of leadership and of management that are applicable in any organisation, but I think particularly so in self-managing structures....more

...eah, I liked those three metaphors and I'm also thinking that these ideas about leadership, as you say, apply to any kind of organisation, not just a self-managing organisation, and yet it's so fascinating to me that these aren't really new ideas - there have been management and business books written about thi...more

..., I think, systemically to really think about how do you redesign our schools to empower and to help individuals develop the skills and the habits of self-management? Again, that question has been around for, I think, centuries as well and I'm partial to the work of American philosopher, John Dewey, who I think hi...more

...s well, in your paper with Amy Edmondson you touched on towards the end a bigger question that's perhaps still being explored and research around: is self-management for everyone? Do you have to have higher psychological levels, or a degree of interpersonal skills? Or in the context of adult development and Robert...more

... and Robert Keegan's work - this is a question that comes up a lot on this podcast and with people I talk to. What are your thoughts on for whom does self-management work? And if we do need higher levels of these kinds of skills, or cognitive abilities, are they trainable if someone's willing? I'm not talking abou...more

... things on people, but if someone's willing, are they trainable or is there sometimes too big a gap for it to be workable? Michael Y. Lee: I think in self-management, going back again to a theme of some of the previous questions; the skills and abilities and mindsets that are needed for effective self-management a...more

...n self-management, going back again to a theme of some of the previous questions; the skills and abilities and mindsets that are needed for effective self-management are probably no different from the skills, abilities and mindsets needed for effective management in a hierarchical structure. I think it's more the ...more

...d management within hierarchical structures, that we no longer ask ourselves or demand that of managers in a hierarchical structure. But I think what self-managing structures do is they make those deficiencies more apparent. So they make those individuals who have not developed the abilities, skills and mindsets...more

... So they make those individuals who have not developed the abilities, skills and mindsets to effectively manage. It becomes very obvious in a kind of self-managing structure such that it's harder to ignore. And so, I do think effective management and effective self-management require levels of psychological deve...more

.... It becomes very obvious in a kind of self-managing structure such that it's harder to ignore. And so, I do think effective management and effective self-management require levels of psychological development. I like to call it 'the higher game': the ability to lead without control, the maturity to have lower ego...more

...o, I think it's a broader, personal journey as well that is required, that hopefully every individual is engaging on - whether they're working in a self-managing organisation, or in a traditional hierarchical organisation....more

...and what was it about holacracy specifically that sparked your interest and made you think, "Oh, yeah, I want to dig more deeply into that particular self-management system"? Michael Y. Lee: I came into my dissertation - I had worked in self-managed teams before and had really positive experiences from those work ...more

...nces, and yet I was feeling puzzled by how organisations could do this, not just within a team, but at an organisational level. And so, the models of self-management that I had experienced with were more your traditional, consensus-based team models of decision making, which I think have a place and can be incredi...more

...ful, but don't really work at scale. And so I think when I learned about holacracy, what really drew me to it was that it was a different approach to self-management than traditional approaches to self-management. And I think that's one of the things that is probably one of the bigger misconceptions about self-man...more

...hink when I learned about holacracy, what really drew me to it was that it was a different approach to self-management than traditional approaches to self-management. And I think that's one of the things that is probably one of the bigger misconceptions about self-management; is that self-management is this unitar...more

...nagement than traditional approaches to self-management. And I think that's one of the things that is probably one of the bigger misconceptions about self-management; is that self-management is this unitary construct that all organisations who are self-managed are essentially doing a similar thing. And while I thi...more

... approaches to self-management. And I think that's one of the things that is probably one of the bigger misconceptions about self-management; is that self-management is this unitary construct that all organisations who are self-managed are essentially doing a similar thing. And while I think they are doing a simil...more

...are essentially doing a similar thing. And while I think they are doing a similar thing, there are also I think, as many differences in approaches to self-management as there are similarities. And so I think what was intriguing to me about holacracy was the fact that it was a very different approach that was highl...more

... to stay in the organisation. And so hierarchical structures tend to privilege and prioritise coordination control over freedom and autonomy. Classic self-managing structures tend to do the opposite, and I think the question is, can you do both? Is there some way to resolve this so that you don't have to necessa...more

...e of variation between individuals; some people really thrived in this structure, and other people really struggled. And so it really highlights that self-management isn't a panacea but it's really hard and it's not necessarily a question of, does it work better for individuals? But I think maybe a better question...more

...or? And when does it work better? And so understanding the conditions under which I think it works, can point us to both organisational readiness for self-management and also where, maybe folks like you; trainers, consultants can focus their attention on helping individuals and groups create the conditions that ar...more

...Lisa Gill: Yeah, that's interesting. I think that panacea thing is a real trap for some people; people adopting self-management because it's the latest trend or they want to be competitive or whatever, and then it kind of becomes about self-management instead of about the purp...more

...e people; people adopting self-management because it's the latest trend or they want to be competitive or whatever, and then it kind of becomes about self-management instead of about the purpose of the organisation, and using whatever management system best helps you meet that purpose. So, yeah, I think that's int...more

..., yeah, I think that's interesting. And yeah, and it's also interesting and something that I've been wondering about; the different contexts in which self-management really works, or is perhaps, maybe less painful to adopt and contexts where it's really, really difficult - and maybe it's possible, but it's going t...more

...g around; if you have a group of people who aren't intrinsically motivated by the work or really passionate about what the organisation does, I think self-management is trickier, because you're asking people to take a lot more responsibility and to think about bigger things. It's not that everyone has to be involv...more

...e you can go with it. And similarly, if people don't have the right competence, and if they're not really skilled at what they're doing, then I think self-management is really tricky too. So there's sort of two things that have come up in conversations I've had. Michael Y. Lee: Yeah, and those align with some of t...more

...Lisa Gill: Yeah and I liked what you said as well - that self-managing and traditional organisations, in some ways there's not a huge difference there in terms of tensions, and when you introduce self-management, new ten...more

...ell - that self-managing and traditional organisations, in some ways there's not a huge difference there in terms of tensions, and when you introduce self-management, new tensions emerge. But one of the things that came to mind when you were talking about that, is that self-management, if done well as the system, ...more

...sions, and when you introduce self-management, new tensions emerge. But one of the things that came to mind when you were talking about that, is that self-management, if done well as the system, at least creates an ability to make those things visible, to kind of make explicit what's going on under the surface, an...more

... aware of them. We've been taking them for granted that those are there and we've accepted them. And so I think that there are a lot of criticisms of self-managing organisations and a lot of scepticism about them; "Oh, they don't work for this" and "They don't do that", and in some way, I think that many of thos...more

... many interesting things and wonderful insights, if you were to offer a piece of advice to people listening who are somewhere on a journey of being a self-managing organisation, what advice would you give them in terms of how they can, (was the phrase you used before?), how they can create a higher game for them...more

... you give them in terms of how they can, (was the phrase you used before?), how they can create a higher game for themselves in terms of the level of self-management they're practicing? Michael Y. Lee: You mean as individuals or as collectives?...more

...feel called to answer. Michael Y. Lee: I think what's coming up for me is just encouragement. Just continue on the journey because it's not just that self-management journey, it's the journey of maturation, of development, of wisdom. And so, I think it's clearly a hard journey, and not a non trivial path but it's ...more

...ent, of wisdom. And so, I think it's clearly a hard journey, and not a non trivial path but it's incredibly rewarding. So whether you're working in a self-managing organisation, or working in a hierarchical structure, we know that these are the types of qualities that are good for teams, that are part of effecti...more

... from many of the wisdom traditions, that this is also probably just good for individual happiness as well, and individual success. So, I really view self-managing structures and organisations as a helpful lens through which to view and understand things that are important for every organisation. So we can draw...more

...mportant for every organisation. So we can draw lessons from these types of radical approaches and it's not that every organisation needs to adopt a self-managing structure. But it's really about: how can we take some of the principles and insights from these experiments in new ways of organising and realise th...more

...s like: "you could do this tomorrow. You could actually adopt many of these practices tomorrow in your team and organisation without ever calling it 'self-management' or 'holacracy' or anything like that." So I think, not thinking about self-management as this fringe, isolated phenomenon that is irrelevant for the...more

...omorrow in your team and organisation without ever calling it 'self-management' or 'holacracy' or anything like that." So I think, not thinking about self-management as this fringe, isolated phenomenon that is irrelevant for the rest of the 99% of organisations that hierarchical, but really viewing it as a continu...more

...ited today, what are some of the biggest shifts? Pasteur Byabeza: You would see a lot, of course. The difference is that before we transitioned into self management, standardisation and centralisation with our academics and curriculum were the norm. So decision making and access to information were a privilege of...more

... no feeling of fulfillment, and that's what you need when you are an employee somewhere. But now, it's completely the opposite of how things were. So self management - in a short period of time - has resulted in empowerment of every employee. There's more transparency, more accountability, more freedom to think di...more

... a self managed circle. For a self managed team to be able to make good decisions, they really need to have all the information. Before we shifted to self management, as I've said, only a handful of people at the top had access to information and people at the bottom of the pyramid could not understand the rationa...more

...Lisa Gill: Thank you for sharing. It's really interesting to hear that some real themes are coming through since shifting to self management, and information is being distributed. So suddenly, everyone has much more transparent access to information, and also the power to take part in and ...more

...Lisa Gill: I'm curious to ask a follow up question about your kind of second point. Regarding the skills that you've noticed are needed to work in a self managing way - around active listening, and upgrading communication skills in general in order to create this climate of psychological safety. Did you do trai...more

...s? Those are very simple techniques that I believe people can be very intentional about and develop. So they were really helpful in our transition to self management....more

...Lisa Gill: And I'm curious also because this is the first African self managing organisation we've had on the podcast. And I know when you and I spoke before you shared with me some reflections as a Rwandan on how certain aspects...more

... Gill: A quick reflection on that theme - because I've heard almost exactly the same thing from people in India, for example, when they have explored self management - and I'm wondering if that dynamic you're describing is a product of colonisation? Or if that's really an inherently African dynamic - do you see wh...more

...t is also deeply rooted into our culture. And I believe, when you mentioned things like united teamwork, solidarity, they work a lot in favour of the self management paradigm....more

...other change, of course, you expect some people to resist. I would say it took some of my colleagues a lot of time to fully embrace the philosophy of self management. You see, as you know, operating in a self managed team requires learning and unlearning certain things. So I can confidently say that some of my col...more

...rent needs and desires. So, I've seen some people - especially my former managers - behaving from a place of insecurity when we started rolling out self management. You see, a lot of energy had to be spent. We invested in getting everybody on board, and we faced resistence from one team, with some people sending...more

...er challenges, but that's actually the main one. Another challenge that I believe we face is that no other higher learning institution had practiced self management before. So that was a very big challenge. So in an African context, or across the globe, I do not think that there are many higher learning instituti...more

... challenge. So in an African context, or across the globe, I do not think that there are many higher learning institution that practice holacracy and self management. So, because of that, you can understand why most people were a little bit skeptical. We like the idea of self management. It's brilliant - but is it...more

...that practice holacracy and self management. So, because of that, you can understand why most people were a little bit skeptical. We like the idea of self management. It's brilliant - but is it really something that can work in a higher learning institution, or other organisations, or practice holacracy from other...more

...ce holacracy from other fields? Does it work for our business? We don't know, we don't have any other higher level institution that already practiced self management. So sometimes people may not want to try it out. Or maybe they can be reluctant because they don't have a reference. And that was really one of the ...more

... more productive. We've seen that they start having job fulfillment - you know, you enjoy what you're doing. You feel happy - that's the freedom that self management has come along with. That contentment, in that the need to, you know, do something more - to be creative, to innovate, the need to utilise your poten...more

...ise your potential to the fullest. You see all of that, and many other things that I don't mention are things that have come along with this shift to self management. And I am confident - as I said. I hope that the future is going to be bright. ...more

... for people listening who are perhaps in higher learning institutions, or in schools or universities or any kind of situation where they're exploring self management as well - what would be your words of advice or encouragement to someone who has walked this path? Pasteur Byabeza: Yes, that's interesting. Of cours...more

...people on this journey of discovering new ways of working together. The first one is it's very important to set up institutional culture that fosters self management. For our kids, we have this amazing cultural code - which is built around seven pillars. I can mention three of them. These are my favorites. And I b...more

...ars. I can mention three of them. These are my favorites. And I believe if they are really well practiced, they can really be a strong foundation for self management. We practice radical transparency. That means being open and honest with others and ourselves. That's really important, and has really helped us a g...more

... those three together have really made a tremendous impact in our transition. So it's very important to set up institutional cultures that can foster self management. Another piece of advice to our to listeners is that you shouldn't expect perfect inclusion. So what I mean here is that there is no single manageme...more

...Lisa Gill: Thank you. I'm so appreciative, listening to you, because it's amazing to me that you're quite early in this self management journey - and yet talking to you it's as if I'm talking to someone who has been doing this for four years or something. You know, I've spoken to peop...more

...yet talking to you it's as if I'm talking to someone who has been doing this for four years or something. You know, I've spoken to people from mature self managing organisations that share these level of insights. And it sounds like you've learned so much already about what it takes to make this shift - some of ...more

...bout the 'Human Skills', because I don't like this phrase, 'Soft Skills' - I think it belittles what I think are very crucial skills, especially in a self-managing organisation. At Fitzii, how have you guys (as you said) created spaces for people to develop some of these skills, like giving feedback in a way whe...more

...n the head there about another point that I'm so often talking to former managers about, or also founders or owners or CEOs of businesses that become self-managing is, as you said, the extra work you have to do to create that psychological safety for people to not just be like, "yes, sir" or "yes, ma'am" or obey...more

...really think, to ask the big, hairy questions. And so for me, and I think for anyone that's a manager and transitioning into being a Teal leader, or self-managing contributor, you have to be proactive in addressing your perceived power and authority: you got to make fun of yourself, you have to admit every mist...more

...Lisa Gill: I want to go back to those three stages of self-management adoption that you mentioned, so Head, Heart, Habits. And I know that many organisations that are developing themselves in terms of Teal or self-manag...more

...management adoption that you mentioned, so Head, Heart, Habits. And I know that many organisations that are developing themselves in terms of Teal or self-management or decentralisation, really struggle with recruiting and onboarding people, like how do you help people understand what this means? I think people ge...more

... different. So how do you do that at Fitzii? How do you find the right people and how do you onboard them in a way that sets them up for success in a self-managing environment? Edwin Jansen: Yeah, it's definitely been interesting because you're absolutely right, people read about self-management and there's all ...more

...p for success in a self-managing environment? Edwin Jansen: Yeah, it's definitely been interesting because you're absolutely right, people read about self-management and there's all of these misconceptions, and the things that they think are going to be difficult aren't difficult, but the things that they didn't r...more

...e manager's job to design the roles: who does what, and then put people into those roles. And so we realise, obviously, it doesn't work that way in a self-managing environment. So we needed a way for people who weren't quite maximising their impact and engagement in their roles to evaluate doing different roles...more

..."Should I post this and seek feedback? Should I book individual meetings, group meetings?" Then as we started to help our parent company move towards self-management, we saw a need and opportunity to more formalise our decision-making process. We had also found a tool from my friend Samantha Slade, who just recent...more

...Lisa Gill: So you mentioned that you're starting to help your parent company now transition to becoming a self-managing organisation. So say something about that: what does the landscape look like? What's the project and how are you starting that? Edwin Jansen: Yeah, t...more

... called the Ian Martin group; about 150 employees in this division that we're working with. So the other manager who was at Fitzii, when we went into self-management about a year and a half ago or so, she moved over into the parent company and has been a fantastic leader there to help them to organise and to start...more

... last four years and now with this transitioning project for the larger parent company - have been the most challenging aspects of becoming a Teal or self-managing organisation? And what are the things that perhaps people don't realise are gonna be challenges? Edwin Jansen: Well, the first thing I would say is a...more

...eepest fear of their personality type. So my deepest fear, ironically, is to be controlled or to not be in control. And so my interest in moving into self-management was actually addressing the scariest thing for me, which is to give up my control on my power to the collective. But then whenever I see someone even...more

...o me before that part of the parent organisation is based in India. Is that a different landscape culturally in terms of helping people transition to self-management? Edwin Jansen: Yes, it absolutely is. I mean, India has been working in a hierarchical, caste type system for many generations. So the deference that...more

...Lisa Gill: It's interesting. I was having a conversation on Twitter about - because I hear this a lot where people say, "Well, self-managing - can that really work in Asia or in Africa or places where the culture is very hierarchical?" And and I've just been in India myself doing a worksho...more

...at really work in Asia or in Africa or places where the culture is very hierarchical?" And and I've just been in India myself doing a workshop with a self-managing company there. And my sense is that, yeah, it's a funny paradox, because on the one hand yeah, this there is this very hierarchical, family tradition...more

... I guess, Eastern philosophy as well if I look to like China and places like that, in some ways, feels like there's a lot of ripe potential there for self-management and perhaps it's the influences of the West that have ironically, slowed those things down or gotten in the way somehow. So it's really interesting t...more

... do you have any final words of wisdom or advice that you'd like to offer listeners that are in this journey themselves: either they want to become a self-managing organisation, or they're in the weeds of it and navigating all of these opportunities and challenges. What words would you like to give them? Edwin J...more

...was was being triggered. And then how do I need to change as a result? So my only advice to everyone would, seems like, less people are getting into self-management thinking about it; they're quite focused on how everyone else will handle this and what everyone else needs to do. But ultimately, it took me a coupl...more

...work out what our unique perspective is. So now the title is 'Mooseheads: Stories about self-managing organisations from Sweden', and it's looking at self-managing organisations, rather than from a structures and processes perspective, more from a perspective of: how do we need to change relationally? How do we ...more

...nterviewing some of the companies and then I also brought in my lens of how this fits with the wider world that's emerging in terms of principles for self-managing organisations. So the book is with a publisher currently and it's almost there, so it should be coming out this year in 2020. So yeah, watch this spa...more

...ak preview as well, so I can confirm it's something to be excited about. I can't wait for that to be released. So that's a bit about how you got into self-management and progressive organisations. Now, I guess the listeners might also be curious a little bit about Lisa Gill outside of self-management and progressi...more

... you got into self-management and progressive organisations. Now, I guess the listeners might also be curious a little bit about Lisa Gill outside of self-management and progressive organisations. So, yeah, tell us a little bit about you. And one thing that struck me when we met is that you're kind of exactly the ...more

...st. So I guess that's the wholeness aspect ticked from 'Reinventing Organisations'. What are you passionate about? What are your interests outside of self-management and progressive orgs? Lisa Gill: I'm happy to hear that I'm the same in life as I am on the podcast and I think that is something that I've worked at...more

...or it, but it still has a bit of catching up to do I think, in terms of where Europe's got to. And so, just looking at the number of self-organising, self-managing companies over the last few years, and the familiarity with some of these concepts, I think has shifted a lot in the collective consciousness or term...more

...ions of that and really starting to feel what it actually takes to becoming a 'teal' organisation, or really embracing those threads of wholeness and self-management and evolutionary purpose. And I think I really liked the way that Edwin Jansen from Fitzii framed it, where he said that at Fitzii they've been four ...more

...ii framed it, where he said that at Fitzii they've been four years into their 'teal journey' I think, and he described these three stages of adopting self-management: the first being head - the kind of intellectual stage, and then the second being heart. Once you've read Reinventing Organisations, or once you've ...more

...e shift, the focus perhaps from the beginning, and this is something I recognise in myself a few years ago, when I first experienced transitioning to self-management, I learned about the new practices and then in my second experience I thought, okay, so we just apply those practices. And I think it was thanks to o...more

... because there's so much richness in what she shared in terms of the the inner shifts that have to happen, as well as the sort of systemic shifts for self-management to really take place. I think one of the earliest episodes I remember a shift happening in me was with Helen Sanderson and I think there was somethin...more

...ng Structures and Holacracy, Corporate Rebels, Aaron Dignan, Enspiral, Ouishare: anybody who's anybody in the world of progressive organisations and self-management. Have you celebrated that? Lisa Gill: Yeah, I think I could probably be better at celebrating. I'm quite a self-critical person so I'm often onto the...more

...ation in India, have reached out and said: "Ah, I'd really like to talk to Ved to understand how he's navigated those challenges culturally, and what self-management can look like there. So that's been really interesting. And then the example that I mentioned, kind of generically then, was a guy called Jorge from ...more

... been inspired by many of the guests, and they had been implementing some of the practices and their own versions of it, and now their own version of self-management is starting to mature and develop. And so he just reached out to say: "Hey, just wanted to let you know we exist, we're doing this and I'm setting up...more

...m working with clients, and then particularly when you're working with a client, and there's some people in the team who are really into the ideas of self-management and looking to be a champion in their team or organisation for the transition, and Leadermorphosis is one of the first resources that I point them to...more

...h, those are three great, great episodes there. Now, you answered the last question with "it depends" and I find that when people ask questions about self-management, very often that's the answer I give. So the space that we work in is maturing, how do you imagine it might be looking over the next year, and partic...more

...f Nearsoft, is interested in looking at employee ownership, for example, because I think if you follow the logical conclusion, if you follow one from self-management is to get to employee ownership. I think that's an option. But he's really interested, and I know others are too: looking at employee ownership in it...more

...obably the hardest work I've ever done. And yeah, I think there's no pill; there's no capsule that you can swallow and that's it away you go - you're self-managing, and it's funny: For organisation A, could well be fatal for organisation B and I think that's quite frustrating, perhaps for leaders when they're ch...more

...cation that's more human, more adult-adult. So what for you is most inspiring about the potential of Nonviolent Communication in organisations and in self management? Miki Kashtan: Thank you. I think in the moment, as you're asking this, what comes to me most strongly, is that the focus on needs is a very powerful...more

... precariousness that people lived in. So fundamentally, our structures are not designed to attend to needs. And if I want a really resilient, robust self managing system, sooner or later, it will need to realign itself with needs. Because otherwise, there comes a moment where it's like, wait a minute, we're sel...more

...ing system, sooner or later, it will need to realign itself with needs. Because otherwise, there comes a moment where it's like, wait a minute, we're self managing, for what purpose? To increase the profit of one person somewhere that can then accumulate? Why would we do that? So the way that so called tradition...more

...Lisa Gill: Yeah, that's so interesting, because so many people working in self managing systems, have this complaint and say to me: "the one thing we're really struggling with is, you know, how do we get people to take a shared ownership...more

...ne thing we're really struggling with is, you know, how do we get people to take a shared ownership of the company? To really step in? We've declared self management, why are these jobs that are maybe less desirable or something, why aren't people really owning them?" And and when you shared what you shared just t...more

...this whole topic of power, and patriarchy, which I know is something that you've written about and explored at length as well. And, again, I think in self managing systems, this is another total paradigm shift. And it's more complex I'm learning than just "let's change this manager-subordinate power dynamic." Th...more

...re because if you don't change the systems and the agreements within which you operate, then it requires individuals to be saints. So ultimately, for self management to really be institutionalised, you need to have clear agreements, clear criteria, about when you do this, when you do that, how you function and all...more

...ts that are necessary I think are so helpful to bear in mind. And I think you touched on something there about agreements and structures in order for self management to work. And I think one of the myths or misconceptions about self management is it's no structures or, you know, let's get rid of structures and pro...more

...touched on something there about agreements and structures in order for self management to work. And I think one of the myths or misconceptions about self management is it's no structures or, you know, let's get rid of structures and processes. You know, it's sort of free for all. And I think there are some parall...more

...re the resources come from, and how do they get distributed? What happens to them? And there are many, many, many different ways, and if you are in a self managing system, you need to work out, especially if the sum total of how people want to use the resources that are within the organisation – which is not jus...more

...o be worked out. That's the resource flow system. The third system is information flow, which is basically about how information moves around. And in self managing systems, information flow is vital and critical because if you want people to make good decisions everywhere within the organisation, if you really w...more

...lled. And so you need to actually do something for information to flow. And then the fourth system is feedback, which is also absolutely crucial in a self managing environment. Because if you are over here, self managing something, and there isn't feedback that constantly comes, you will silo. And you will funct...more

...ation to flow. And then the fourth system is feedback, which is also absolutely crucial in a self managing environment. Because if you are over here, self managing something, and there isn't feedback that constantly comes, you will silo. And you will function without sufficient information about the impact of th...more

...pletely replicate the existing structures that we have in a patriarchal, capitalist, white supremacist, etc. world. Meanwhile people are trying to do self management and going "why isn't it happening?" It's not happening because you didn't set up the systems and structures to support it in happening....more

...human shifts that need to happen? What can I do as a human being to develop the mindset, the skills, the abilities needed to collaborate in in a more self managing way? Miki Kashtan: I'll start with telling you a story. And through that story, I will pull out a very core principle. I was once working with an org...more

...have talked about... So I guess in closing thoughts, then, what would be one piece of advice that you would give to listeners who are on some kind of self management journey of their own? Miki Kashtan: It can be daunting to make the shifts. I mean, I'm just listening through the ears of someone who hasn't done all...more

...rs of someone who hasn't done all the work that I've done in the last 20 something years. And it's like, "oh my god, maybe I would just rather not do self management". So I want to say, it may be daunting. And in my experience, every step of the way, yields more freedom, and more collaboration, both. So you take b...more

...Lisa Gill: What are you finding are the biggest challenges in terms of this ambition to be self-managing? Clearly you see an alignment there between what your ambitions are for the company and self-management. What has been most challenging so far in try...more

...gest challenges in terms of this ambition to be self-managing? Clearly you see an alignment there between what your ambitions are for the company and self-management. What has been most challenging so far in trying to start to implement that? NK Chaudhary: There are two major challenges, from my own experience, in...more

...n most challenging so far in trying to start to implement that? NK Chaudhary: There are two major challenges, from my own experience, in implementing self-management. The first is: how to create a core team of professionals who are naturally naturally inclined towards self-management and can then further become th...more

...wn experience, in implementing self-management. The first is: how to create a core team of professionals who are naturally naturally inclined towards self-management and can then further become the ambassadors of the same in our organisation. The second is: to create the right and relevant training programme to br...more

...g programme to bring a mindset change in the whole organisation. So now we are seeking help from people around the world who have already implemented self-management across their organisations....more

...ill: Thank you. I know that you're familiar with the company Yash Pakka and I've spoken to Ved Krishna there and a lot of people have said to me that self-management isn't possible in countries like India, where there's a strong hierarchical culture. I'm curious, what do you think about that? What is your take? Is...more

...est, if this comes together, will give birth to a new humanity. India as a country is a huge talent goldmine, and to harness this enormous potential, self-management would be the key. The youth of new India is highly passionate and all they need is love, direction, and freedom....more

...e satisfaction now that there's proof, right? So what advice would you give to people who are listening? Who, like you, are interested in introducing self-management principles to fulfil the purpose of their organisation even more strongly? What advice would you give them in terms of what you're learning so far? N...more

...lf, the more you will find yourself. The problem is not outside, but inside. And it begins with you. Second, people need love, direction and freedom. Self-management is about empowering the frontline and the doers. We must not forget that they are the heroes and kings of the business....more

...Lisa Gill: I think this is something that I'm learning more and more that if we really want everyone to flourish and create an environment based on self-management principles, it's not going to happen by chance. And it's not going to happen only by introducing new structures. But it's so much about intention and...more

...ux and Doug and Miki, you mentioned what you've learned from Otto Scharmer, for example. Are there other key lessons that you've learned so far about self-management that you think would be useful to share? NK Chaudhary: I think when I meet all these great, great people, I see they are highly conscious people. And...more

...ness, by bringing that mindfulness. And we can only create the new future when we are mindful. So I think consciousness will be the way to bring that self-management. The more conscious the leaders, the more consciousness, self-awareness [there will be in the] staff - it will make a difference. Because the future ...more

... other companies. So the research says that bureaucracy is the biggest problem and the only companies that will survive are those who will go towards self-management. So this is proved by the research....more

... satisfied person. I can create a difference in the life of my people. So I'm very happy that the time has come. And so many people are talking about self-management. I'm really happy to see that....more

...s that they felt incredibly powerless about them. And it was an incredibly uncomfortable feeling. So these were pretty traditional organisations, not self-managing organisations. These are some of the most powerful CEOs in Brazil. And they realised that they were powerful within a very limited domain of acceptab...more

... I have a good friend in France, Nicolas Hennon, who was a young leader of a fashion brand [Kiabi] and he did amazing things. Like he pushed towards self-management, a huge push for wholeness, very deep listening… And Kiabi, just went through the roof, like in an industry that’s pretty shattered, they were doing...more

...h right now, a really big one, is Decathlon, this sports goods company. They have a top management but it’s sympathetic to a lot of things, you know, self-management and so on. But there have been people at the bottom and the middle of the pyramid who have really been pushing the envelope without asking for permis...more

...hat we’re talking about now, like what are the human things we need to do? Because I think I’ve been experiencing that, you know, just talking about self-management and implementing some kind of structure or some kind of process or some kind of framework is less interesting. It actually seems to me that what make...more

...y.” So I couldn’t agree more with you. I mean, I am a bit of a systems geek, right? And I love to think about these systems like, you know, how could self-managing systems work… but ultimately, this is all just in service to some deep yearning that we have, or some clarity around like, “I will no longer do this....more

... And one way is like, “Wow, this is gonna be hard. This is unprecedented, you know, we’re going against 5,000 years of human conditioning in terms of self-management, real growth pains…” And another way to hold it is, “This is going to be the adventure of a lifetime. And this is going to be fun and deep down, we ...more

... people who don’t know K2K in the Basque Country is this group of people who have helped 60 companies, maybe it might be 80 or 100 companies, move to self-management and they have an amazing track record of making that happen. And the founding father, the leading figure, is Koldo [Saratxaga] who years ago transfo...more

...ord of making that happen. And the founding father, the leading figure, is Koldo [Saratxaga] who years ago transformed a much larger company towards self-management — hugely successful. And it was just so interesting talking to him and then talking to his colleagues who were all saying, “Yeah, this is so incredib...more

...about this amazing company in Sweden, Björn Lundén, this publishing company and the founder is this amazing character. He didn’t read any books about self-management or anything but has designed the company as it is because he knows no other way to be. Why wouldn’t he involve people decisions and so on. And so to ...more

...f have a deep programme to change people’s mindsets.” Maybe another example that comes up often is: people shy away from difficult conversations. So self-managing is working, but people don’t give each other hard feedback that is needed for self-management to work. So the default answer there is often: “Okay, w...more

...ften is: people shy away from difficult conversations. So self-managing is working, but people don’t give each other hard feedback that is needed for self-management to work. So the default answer there is often: “Okay, we train everybody in giving feedback.” And so with Wilber’s quadrants, it’s sort of a behaviou...more

... after a while, they came back and said: “No, we’re not over staffed” and she was furious. And she said, “Yeah, maybe people aren’t mature enough for self-management. This is not working.” And we just looked at it like, yeah, but you are still trying to solve that problem. For them, you are still having a role in...more

...y. Who knows how it’s gonna play out, but I think on all of the three breakthroughs right now that we talked about, it’s been an accelerator, like on self-management. Right? We suddenly realise: people can work from home and we don’t know how many hours they work, and we can sort of trust them. We have no choice b...more

...uge inspiration to me, and many of the people who listen to this podcast, so thank you. Leadermorphosis is a podcast exploring the emerging world of self-managing organisations and radical ways of working. Hosted by Lisa Gill, each episode features a guest thought leader or practitioner offering a unique perspe...more

...organisation started to really intentionally work on our way of working, and really wanted to explore how can we do this, but in a way that's true to self-managing. So how do you really make sure that everyone is involved in co-creating an organisation that is self-managed? Taryn Burden: I think one of the momen...more

...ad an organisation of two halves, which was kind of where some of the pain points came for us. Because you had your development teams who are already self-managing within a company that had line management, because they had the Scrum methodology to support their agile self-management. But you had the other half ...more

...elopment teams who are already self-managing within a company that had line management, because they had the Scrum methodology to support their agile self-management. But you had the other half of the business who didn't have those processes. And so line management was removed for them, but they had no frameworks ...more

...at was a real watershed moment, I think, a real pivotal moment for the organisation to really wrap their heads around what does this mean to become a self-managing organisation, in a way that everybody can have a voice and bring that about together? And I think that was a real pivotal moment for us in terms of b...more

...Lisa Gill: Yeah, I love that. I'd love to talk a bit about leadership. I think there are a lot of misconceptions when people start exploring self-managing teams that there, you know, should be no leadership, there should be no leaders. And I want to talk about this in two parts, because I know in Mayden...more

... picked up and sowed those seeds around how we looked at the role of the director, and what does that need to be? And how does that function within a self-managing organisation? And then also, what does a leaderful organisation look like, how does that really take shape and work? How does that work in practice? ...more

...So we make sure that we acknowledge that as part of the role of the director. And then in terms of that leadership space, what we've recognised as a self-managing organisation is that absolutely anybody could be leading and have leadership behaviours, across the business, depending on the needs of the work, the...more

... reflecting on what you've touched on a little bit around what can sometimes be challenging also, and the kind of shadow side, I think, of being in a self-managing organisation, that the onus can fall quite heavily on the individual to own your own development and seek those opportunities out and so on. How do y...more

...is environment. And some of these questions were guided by times when people really struggled, or those that found it really challenging to work in a self-managing way. So, trying to look for those aspects when we're hiring has been really important. Taryn Burden: Yeah, I think, obviously, we really want to ensu...more

...of the director, how how it works here at Mayden, what is the language that we use. I often talk about managing the work, not the people, how we're a self-managing, as-flat-as-we-can-be organisation, I then talk about, you know, we believe in guidelines over rules and fluid frameworks over rigid structures. So y...more

...ch team has interpreted it in a very special way and a unique way to them. And so we also want them to experience their team's approach, their team's self-managing way of working. Some teams use Scrum, some teams use other Agile methodology to organise themselves. So you want the individual to experience it for ...more

...more things I'd love to ask you. But I'd love to know what your advice would be for listeners who are on their own journeys with new ways of working, self-managing teams perhaps, what advice would you have valued when you joined, for example, or what has stayed with you? Ruth Waterfield: I think the shorter you ...more

...want. So those are huge aspirations, and psychological safety… that’s just one small, but important, piece of these larger goals. So the idea of the self-managing organisation is something we can readily imagine — and there are examples of it — existing as a fully fleshed out, real-world phenomenon. And psychol...more

...d phenomenon. And psychological safety is just this sort of psychological, interpersonal experience that I would argue, it’s hard to have a genuinely self-managing organisation or learning organisation without some level of psychological safety. But they’re very different research targets — one has got lots of m...more

...LG: Yeah, and for me why that paper was so exciting when I read it was because I come from a field where people are practising organisational self-management in various different ways, so to see the academic world starting to grapple with it was really interesting to me. And also, in terms of starting to d...more

... ways, so to see the academic world starting to grapple with it was really interesting to me. And also, in terms of starting to distinguish what is a self-managing organisation and what is it not. I think there are a lot of myths and misconceptions, and the organisations that you include in the paper are on diff...more

...hink there are a lot of myths and misconceptions, and the organisations that you include in the paper are on different scales on different aspects of self-management. And as you say, the psychological safety piece for me, is something that’s being talked about less, the less tangible stuff, the interpersonal stuff...more

...ction between management and leadership and that anyone, regardless of their role, can step into leadership of some kind. And I’m thinking about in a self-managing team or organisation, it’s kind of essential that people step into leadership, that it becomes leaderful. What would you say are some things that if ...more

...ing responsible for what shows up around me. So some people listening will be on journeys of their own — many listeners I know are exploring being a self-managing organisation or they’re on some stage of that journey. It would be great if you could share some advice or wisdom in terms of some pitfalls people ca...more

...LG: And also I think if you’re experimenting with self-managing ways of working, it’s easy to try something, have it not work, and say: “Oh, self-management is wrong or bad or dangerous or it didn’t work for us” r...more

...LG: And also I think if you’re experimenting with self-managing ways of working, it’s easy to try something, have it not work, and say: “Oh, self-management is wrong or bad or dangerous or it didn’t work for us” rather than: “OK, that’s interesting, so that didn’t work, so what did we learn from that? Wha...more

... doesn’t work either. AE: Exactly. We underestimate the degree to which the old model doesn’t work. And then we think: “Let’s try something new like self-managing teams, let’s try Agile — oh it didn’t work, so we go back to the old way.” But the old way wasn’t working, we just didn’t know it wasn’t working. ...more

...n the future? AE: You know, I’m most curious about how do we take these research-based ideas, and that includes psychological safety and teaming and self-managing organisations… and maybe this will sound contradictory, but I really would like to develop more of a playbook. And of course, we’ve been talking long...more

...ry quickly from let's say, 30 to 100 people. And somewhere along that growth you started to see different challenges. And we had created our model of self-management - we didn't call it, we call it 'reversed hierarchy', and we had our own little pictures that we were painting and felt very revolutionary, and so on...more

...ou could tell us something about some of the decisions you've made, or some of the things you've implemented that are alternatives to that along your self-management journey; what are the things that have worked well and what are the things that are still really challenging in terms of balancing the purpose of the...more

...ompany and so on, they were like: "Is this like how you run companies in Sweden?" Well it's not really like it, this is much more towards freedom and self-management than most Swedish companies would be. Gustav Henman: But there is a kind of a catch-22 there; like being young and open-minded and wanting new thing,...more

... of people who work with product development, producing various marketing material, financial, administrative support, and so on. So in a way without self-management, we wouldn't be able to make so many good things happen. Based on self-management, we are running an I.T hub in Mariupol, which is one of the big cit...more

..., financial, administrative support, and so on. So in a way without self-management, we wouldn't be able to make so many good things happen. Based on self-management, we are running an I.T hub in Mariupol, which is one of the big cities close to the frontline, and this is something that came up as a local opportun...more

...nd then I'm like: "Of course we can do it!" And to be with that sort of personalities that at the same time, it can sometimes disturb this process of self-management; if you jump in too hard and taking over the steering wheel from people. So that's something I'm working with. Gustav Henman: And my corresponding th...more

...n trying to focus my thinking on like engineering the organisation instead of the people. So I spent a lot of time now lately on these mechanisms for self-management, for example, that requires a lot of the kind of thinking I like, so it's a way of tricking, redirecting the pitfall into something productive. Andre...more

...hese sort of calls from people in the organisation who go like: "Let's make someone the boss of XYZ", which sounds maybe counterintuitive in terms of self-management, but maybe that's one of the roles as we have as founders to stand for - that this is the way we are doing things and we are not stepping away from s...more

... had an amazing seven years since starting the company and have learned a lot along the way. What would your advice be to people listening who are in self-managing organisations of their own or perhaps thinking about transforming their organisation into a self-managing one? What tips or advice would you share wi...more

...ur advice be to people listening who are in self-managing organisations of their own or perhaps thinking about transforming their organisation into a self-managing one? What tips or advice would you share with them? Gustav Henman: The very obvious thing for us is to start from the soft parts, like as we coincid...more

...entally did when we started to grow this culture, (it wasn't coincidental, but it came natural) and then that's reflecting the growth environment for self-management. Then we talk about trust, feedback culture and these things and transparency and then gradually start talk about it, start to let more people get mo...more

...re than just your word or permission. You have to see it to believe it, almost. Margaret Heffernan: Yes, I think that's right. But I also don't think self management solves all problems. I think there's a great tendency in business thinking, to pursue the hunt for the silver bullet, that one thing that changes eve...more

...t we mostly work in are enormously complex, and one single thing or one single idea doesn't change everything. But I think that the the advantage of self management is that it makes much clearer who's responsible for what. And the things that people decide to do for themselves, they are much more likely to take r...more

...lvement, become better educated. And by their better education, start to understand how to make good choices. And this can come back to your theme of self management. This absolutely cannot be done by handing down edicts, by shaming people, or by bossing people around - it has got to be co-created, I believe, with...more

...Lisa Gill: I wonder what your advice might be to people listening who are in self-managing organisations. They've evolved a lot of really cool practices, and they're doing quite well. But the one thing that they haven't yet touched is salar...more

...So I'd say first of all, don't blame yourself if talking about money gives you the heebie jeebies, that's normal and expected. If you're working in a self-managing organisation, you probably have a lot of practices for creating good containers for having hard conversations. So I'd encourage you to think about th...more

..., what words of wisdom or advice or thought-starters would you give to listeners of the podcast who are somewhere on their journey perhaps to being a self-managing organisation or if they're starting to think about it or they're looking for the next level of development? What advice would you give them? Alanna I...more

... space of - is what I'm doing worth sharing? Is that thing that is in need worth my investment? There's a little bit of a phenomenon that happens in self managing cultures of waiting for someone else to get to it, right? Because if it isn't a role that we've defined, if it isn't an agreement we've made, but it'...more

...Lisa Gill: Yes, totally. What advice, then would you give to people listening who are in an organisation that maybe curious about becoming self managing? Or they are wanting to do things differently in the organisation at whatever level they are in their company? What advice would you give them in ter...more

...Lisa Gill: Tell me about that. How does that support you, the IT system? Because I understand it's quite key to having self-managing teams at Buurtzorg. Chila: Because it makes everything very simple. You can find everything. So for one client, you can order stuff for the client o...more

...haviours that we associate with managers anyway. In any case, I think my interpretation, or maybe my belief in general is that there is leadership in self-managing teams, but it's a chosen kind of leadership. It's a leadership where we all step into our own authority in different ways and it's dynamic. Its leade...more

...Lisa Gill: So in wrapping up our conversation, there are people listening, who are on journeys of their own, perhaps towards becoming a self-managing organisation, or maybe they're on their own journey, as a source or doing their own inner work. So, with all of the work that you've done over the ye...more

...hey are. They're little moments, which, for some people now we think, Oh, that's a sign of hope. You know, we're going to convert all corporations to self management, because this works. So well. Yes, it works. So well. We've been doing that since the 70s. And I don't want to sound like an old person, but I am, an...more