Roles

...dentifying that person and understanding the role there. So that's the first and quite important principle. And then the other principles look at the role then of the source. Is it okay just to carry on talking like this, or do you have another question?...more

...Lisa Gill: Yeah. Well I always have a lot of questions but I think the opportunity will come up and I think the role is a very important part of source. So yeah, please. Peter Koenig: So I started to research then what is the role? How can we define what this founde...more

...tunity will come up and I think the role is a very important part of source. So yeah, please. Peter Koenig: So I started to research then what is the role? How can we define what this founder does and distinguish it from other roles in an initiative? And it started to become clear quite quickly what the...more

...So yeah, please. Peter Koenig: So I started to research then what is the role? How can we define what this founder does and distinguish it from other roles in an initiative? And it started to become clear quite quickly what the role the source has. I now define it in three roles, actually. One is to actu...more

... How can we define what this founder does and distinguish it from other roles in an initiative? And it started to become clear quite quickly what the role the source has. I now define it in three roles, actually. One is to actually receive the vision for the initiative or the project or the enterprise. ...more

...distinguish it from other roles in an initiative? And it started to become clear quite quickly what the role the source has. I now define it in three roles, actually. One is to actually receive the vision for the initiative or the project or the enterprise. It's like a receptive role which comes in the f...more

... define it in three roles, actually. One is to actually receive the vision for the initiative or the project or the enterprise. It's like a receptive role which comes in the form of an idea, but many people have ideas. And the distinction to make between somebody who has an idea, somebody who is source ...more

...ep to the realisation. And that involves an investment of oneself and taking a certain risk, and the risk can take various forms. So that's the first role. The second role is then that when the source is clear on something that they communicate it. Now, clarity is the organising principle for a source....more

...ion. And that involves an investment of oneself and taking a certain risk, and the risk can take various forms. So that's the first role. The second role is then that when the source is clear on something that they communicate it. Now, clarity is the organising principle for a source. So most of the ti...more

...to have it manifest, is to communicate it to the people who are working with you. So communication of that clarity is the second step, and the second role. And the third role is one which would not be understood or seen yet by people who are running organisations in conventional ways, because it involve...more

... is to communicate it to the people who are working with you. So communication of that clarity is the second step, and the second role. And the third role is one which would not be understood or seen yet by people who are running organisations in conventional ways, because it involves describing an orga...more

...fluencing things. I much prefer to look at an organization as something more organic in terms of a field of energy or influence. And then the third role comes into view, which is different to like a conventional control of people, control of structures, control of this strategic planning, the third ro...more

...le comes into view, which is different to like a conventional control of people, control of structures, control of this strategic planning, the third role is actually managing the boundary of this field. Because the source person, the source needs to decide what's in the field; what's in and what's out,...more

...ly would weaken this integrity, and things would start to happen which you feel uncomfortable with. So that's what I would describe as the three main roles of source. ...more

... what I'm learning more and more, and having spent sort of five days with you in New Zealand just recently as well, is the paradoxical nature of this role of source. And so I remember when I first came across your work, as you described, being challenged, and thinking, hang on a minute, this goes agains...more

...alized ways of organising. And I remember that our mutual friend, Tom Nixon, he had a nice way of putting it that what you're describing, these three roles that the source plays, I think it can conjure up images again of the kind of charismatic leader or the sort of heroic leader, which is a sort of old ...more

...adigm now, a bit out of date I think. And actually, what Tom said is that it's more of a vulnerable visionary, that there is a lot of humility in the role of source. It's this paradox between being very clear, as you said, and having some kind of creative authority about what's in the field. And yet, at...more

... was able to recognise that they're all founders. If you read through the book, the information is all coming from sources. And I said, "How come the role of these people were not included in your theory actually?" And he was very quick and honest to reply. He said, "Actually, I could have done but I wa...more

...lf, but I think he's seen that's why he started following my source work, because he got to understand the limitation in terms of not recognising the role of the Sources. And, bringing it into his whole theory as well. And that's what he's started to try to do, I think in his way; he's trying to do it....more

...t, and it can be really freeing in terms of suddenly energy channels get unblocked and it's like, "Oh! now we know what we can do when I know what my role is." Yeah. It's very nice to hear you describing this, you're describing this for me very accurately, beautifully accurately. At least at the start w...more

...also a 'bottom-up' transformation, (if I can say that way, which is also a little bit outdated). But in a sense, the people who have had traditional roles of power, like managers, yes, there's some inner work for them to do in terms of being open to other perspectives and taking responsibility for their...more

...particularly in my circles of people working with new ways of working), is the question, can a small group of people or can multiple people hold that role of source? Because a lot of people feel like, "I don't like that there's just one person with this sort of centralised role." I'm convinced that in o...more

...multiple people hold that role of source? Because a lot of people feel like, "I don't like that there's just one person with this sort of centralised role." I'm convinced that in our initiative, there are multiple people holding that role. So what's your response to that? Peter Koenig: Well, as I said a...more

...t like that there's just one person with this sort of centralised role." I'm convinced that in our initiative, there are multiple people holding that role. So what's your response to that? Peter Koenig: Well, as I said at the start, as far as I'm concerned, for any role, there's only one person and a so...more

... are multiple people holding that role. So what's your response to that? Peter Koenig: Well, as I said at the start, as far as I'm concerned, for any role, there's only one person and a source as the person who's taken the initiative. Now, it's not always easy to convince people about that I agree with ...more

...hing. Yuval Noah Harare says, a good test is, can it feel things? And an organisation can't feel things. But a source can, a person who's holding the role of source can, so you know, okay, that's real, that's not a story that's a person. So I think yeah, sometimes for me, the danger of talking about org...more

...isations is if it's this living thing and talking about listening for its purpose, and so on. My suspicion is that there is someone there playing the role of source, but it's maybe not transparent and so what we're really listening to is them and not the organisation, and that can become a bit tricky. A...more

...s it fit the larger field? Not the details of the operation but does what they're doing fit within the larger field? If it fits, that's part of their role to say, "Yes, this is in, go ahead. Even if I don't like the color of the carpet you're choosing in the office, and I would never do what you're doin...more

...f this money work actually - to do precisely that, to have money be the facilitator that it was originally invented to be. Because if you look at the role it's playing in so many people's lives, now, it's more like the obstacle. It's become like the obstacle rather than the facilitator. So that's the wo...more

...d Mayden in 2017, so shortly after Taryn and Philippa. I joined the development teams as a developer initially, but a bit like Taryn and Philippa, my role has also morphed over time. Now I spend most of my time as a Scrum Master. If you haven't come across a Scrum Master before, it's an interesting mix ...more

...Lisa Gill: Thank you. All three of you have mentioned how your roles have evolved over time, and I think it might be really interesting for listeners to hear a bit of a timeline, like at a high level, what have been so...more

...it's really interesting to talk about leadership as a kind of activity, or co-leadership if you like, something that people can embody whatever their role is in the organisation. So I'd like to know also what that looks like. Philippa Kindon: Taryn has got the biggest smile on her face. You go for it. T...more

... different smile zone, but happy to start. Obviously, as you said, there's two parts to it, and we did a lot of work within Mayden around what is the role of the director in a flat structured organisation, and whenever I do an induction with new staff around our way of working, I always say that we're a...more

...on, and around the time that the exec team got disbanded - and I might hand over to Philippa at this point - we did a lot of work around what is that role of the director in a company that doesn't have that, and we figured out a space in that, I don't know if you wanted to pick that up, Philippa, becaus...more

... So I think, as you say, there's definitely two parts to this question. And Taryn sort of picked up and sowed those seeds around how we looked at the role of the director, and what does that need to be? And how does that function within a self-managing organisation? And then also, what does a leaderful ...more

...hen also, what does a leaderful organisation look like, how does that really take shape and work? How does that work in practice? So in terms of the role of the director, we worked across the business, and we use a tool - probably for want of a better word - from the Agile and Scrum framework called "S...more

...k called "Stories". And the framework of a story is, "As a so-and-so, I would like such-and-such, so that I can", and we wrote our stories around the role of the director, "As an employee at Mayden, I would like a really clear understanding of what the role of the director is, so that I can deliver to m...more

...at I can", and we wrote our stories around the role of the director, "As an employee at Mayden, I would like a really clear understanding of what the role of the director is, so that I can deliver to my role". And then we wrote the other side of the story, "As a director at Mayden, I would like a really...more

...f the director, "As an employee at Mayden, I would like a really clear understanding of what the role of the director is, so that I can deliver to my role". And then we wrote the other side of the story, "As a director at Mayden, I would like a really clear understanding...", so it was a two handed stor...more

...t takes time to have the conversations, to make proposals, to consult and to really develop these over time. But where we've ended up is a four part role of the director. Set direction, set expectation, then we have something called "Get Out of the Way", we can go into that in a bit more detail, and th...more

...House and there are certain things that only a director is allowed to do in the legal entity. So we make sure that we acknowledge that as part of the role of the director. And then in terms of that leadership space, what we've recognised as a self-managing organisation is that absolutely anybody could ...more

...our communication systems. But then I'll spend a morning with a new starter just talking through some of the language and an understanding around the role of the director, how how it works here at Mayden, what is the language that we use. I often talk about managing the work, not the people, how we're a...more

...h Waterfield: Just as a small example, often when developers join one of our teams, I'm the scrum master for a team, and that is a servant-leadership role. So I do have a place in coaching and facilitating, but I'm not in charge. I don't have authority over the team. I support and facilitate and make th...more

...nt, I think. I'd really be curious to hear from each of you, what has been challenging for you personally in this journey, and the evolution of your role in Mayden, and it could be something that you've overcome, or it could be something that you're still wrestling with now, or keen to - like a learnin...more

...Lisa Gill: That's interesting, because I can imagine it would be so tempting in your role - or perhaps this applies to all three of you actually in your role in supporting people to be effective or to develop ways of working, it would be e...more

...a Gill: That's interesting, because I can imagine it would be so tempting in your role - or perhaps this applies to all three of you actually in your role in supporting people to be effective or to develop ways of working, it would be easy to want to rescue people or alleviate pain. But I find that some...more

...ind of looking at all of our ways of working, the areas that we've looked at over the last six years, whether it's been progression, decision making, role of the director, feedback, management arrangements within the organisation. And we've put some processes in place that are working, or have worked, b...more

...rocess' I'm particularly proud of. I like to say it's the closest thing to a panacea that I've ever seen in business: you got a people problem? Do a 'Role Advice Process'. And we had read this book a few years ago called 'Prime to Perform' and it was like Dan Pink's 'Drive', but a much more data driven ...more

...ce management, that the biggest difference or the biggest driver of a high-performing culture, was how effectively that culture did what they called 'Role Design'. And I remember reading this and thinking: "What's 'Role Design'? I don't remember taking any courses in business class about 'Role Design', ...more

...of a high-performing culture, was how effectively that culture did what they called 'Role Design'. And I remember reading this and thinking: "What's 'Role Design'? I don't remember taking any courses in business class about 'Role Design', what is that?" Well, what it is is what it sounds like. In an Ora...more

...y called 'Role Design'. And I remember reading this and thinking: "What's 'Role Design'? I don't remember taking any courses in business class about 'Role Design', what is that?" Well, what it is is what it sounds like. In an Orange or Green environment, it's the manager's job to design the roles: who d...more

... about 'Role Design', what is that?" Well, what it is is what it sounds like. In an Orange or Green environment, it's the manager's job to design the roles: who does what, and then put people into those roles. And so we realise, obviously, it doesn't work that way in a self-managing environment. So we n...more

... is what it sounds like. In an Orange or Green environment, it's the manager's job to design the roles: who does what, and then put people into those roles. And so we realise, obviously, it doesn't work that way in a self-managing environment. So we needed a way for people who weren't quite maximising t...more

...oesn't work that way in a self-managing environment. So we needed a way for people who weren't quite maximising their impact and engagement in their roles to evaluate doing different roles. So we created this practice and it has just worked so beautifully. Essentially, the individual says: "I think I co...more

...aging environment. So we needed a way for people who weren't quite maximising their impact and engagement in their roles to evaluate doing different roles. So we created this practice and it has just worked so beautifully. Essentially, the individual says: "I think I could be maximising things if I was ...more

...ctice and it has just worked so beautifully. Essentially, the individual says: "I think I could be maximising things if I was in a slightly different role or maybe an entirely different role", they announce that they're doing this 'Role Advice Process' publicly, they ask some specific people to be advis...more

...tifully. Essentially, the individual says: "I think I could be maximising things if I was in a slightly different role or maybe an entirely different role", they announce that they're doing this 'Role Advice Process' publicly, they ask some specific people to be advisors, but anyone can be an advisor, w...more

...think I could be maximising things if I was in a slightly different role or maybe an entirely different role", they announce that they're doing this 'Role Advice Process' publicly, they ask some specific people to be advisors, but anyone can be an advisor, we use Loomio so that everyone can see all of t...more

...y, they ask some specific people to be advisors, but anyone can be an advisor, we use Loomio so that everyone can see all of the feedback and see the role as it's moving through, and the individual is essentially asked to understand themselves introspectively, but then also to get feedback from outside ...more

... almost always amazing because the person ends up in this much better place at the center of the Venn and so we've had people that have done multiple Role Advice Processes, like almost every year. Basically, each person may not know where to be, but the group knows exactly where they should be. So the '...more

... Advice Processes, like almost every year. Basically, each person may not know where to be, but the group knows exactly where they should be. So the 'Role Advice Process' is just answering that question: "What should I be doing? Where should I be?" And it works beautifully....more

...f other potential common practices that are being worked through, like this decision-making workflow, the feedback practice as a common practice, the role of vice processes as a common practice. So they're just working through the application of all of these practices. But I would say the most interesti...more

... questions around how they feel about their comp, how they got paid, do some market research, and then they go and get advice, and just like with the Role Advice Process, you can see all of the feedback and advice that people are getting in Loomio as they're going through, and there is a bit of pinball ...more

...as at least one person that is past that stage, then at least there's going to be that voice represented in the advice process around compensation or role. And that's what we've noticed. Like Laloux says: "The level of consciousness of the group can only go as high as the level of consciousness of the s...more

... people felt like there was less of an emphasis or an attention paid to the team as a whole and to collaboration, and that's because these individual roles became so much more salient because they were defined, they were made explicit, they were published on this online platform. And so it created this n...more

...ere defined, they were made explicit, they were published on this online platform. And so it created this new tension between focus on the individual role versus focus on collective effort. And another new tension that emerged was that between the formal roles as a source of authority, (meaning that in...more

...new tension between focus on the individual role versus focus on collective effort. And another new tension that emerged was that between the formal roles as a source of authority, (meaning that individuals could now go and ask other people to do work because they had a role that was responsible for tha...more

...was that between the formal roles as a source of authority, (meaning that individuals could now go and ask other people to do work because they had a role that was responsible for that), versus cultural values. So the organisation I studied, culture was a very prominent source of power before such that,...more

...r". But after they adopted holacracy, the feeling was that those cultural values lost salience and lost power in the organisation, because the formal roles really became the kind of primary source of attention and authority in the organisation. So just to say, I think that the insight, or the takeaway fr...more

... that you mentioned earlier on in the conversation about what senior or more experienced employees need to have in terms of qualities and what junior role or less experienced colleagues need to have. So I think there is something around; if you have a group of people who aren't intrinsically motivated b...more

...y system, a lead link, and you're the lead link of the Student Care Circle. So how has the experience been for you? What have you learned in that new role? Pasteur Byabeza: So I've been assigned the role of lead link for several months. And I've learned so many lessons. I think the first one is I've lea...more

...f the Student Care Circle. So how has the experience been for you? What have you learned in that new role? Pasteur Byabeza: So I've been assigned the role of lead link for several months. And I've learned so many lessons. I think the first one is I've learned to have an optimistic, positive view of my c...more

...positive view of my colleagues. A lead link is a little different from a traditional manager - but it is somehow the closest to it, compared to other roles. So when I say I've learned to have an optimistic positive view of my colleagues, what I mean is that there's this belief that people dislike their w...more

... having almost two jobs - my actual job, and my job of looking good or pleasing my manager - towards my job being about fulfilling the purpose of my role in the organisation and being much more connected to that. Pasteur Byabeza: Yes, that's true. You feel like all that matters to you is the way your m...more

...now, African culture and how that has played a part in this shift? Pasteur Byabeza: That's a great question. I would say that our thought is that the role of culture in management is poorly understood. People should know that values, norms and beliefs derived from certain group of people will definitely...more

...o lose that. And we are driven by fear. And so it impacts our role. So my suggestion, and my advice is not to create that identity, only focus on the role. When we mix them together, it makes things more complicated. And when we are driven by losing our identity, we are driven by fear. So it really impa...more

...Lisa Gill: Yeah, I really agree with you there actually, that's a very clear way of putting it: to separate identity and role. Because I think that's what many people are afraid of, as you say, to sort of let go of having ultimate power, to let go of being the hero, if you'r...more

...of having ultimate power, to let go of being the hero, if you're the CEO is scary and feels like a loss for people sometimes I think. But if you keep role and identity separate, it doesn't have to be a loss. NK Chaudhary: And I think it comes from the inferiority -complex, because when we are driven by ...more

... wrong things. So talk with people who you're feeling less comfortable with. So for example, I think if you have a kind of managerial role or a lead role, I think talking with nurses would be very healthy. As a nurse, (I'm a nurse), you've been talking to everybody with every kind of background, so yo...more

...e. So it's all the same - all talking about leadership and how important is leadership and now I call it being humble; how can you put yourself in a role that people see who you really are as a person, not as a leader, but as a person? And you know, it's too much about techniques and not too much about...more

...hree teams you mentioned (IT and the other two teams) that they're still self-managed, that they haven't reinstalled the manager. How do you see your role as CEO now and I guess, what does leadership look like generally in SRS now? Anna Elgh: It's fantastic because I've released and gotten so much more...more

...Lisa Gill: And the other managers in the management team - did they reshape their roles? They found a different way to contribute to the organisation? Anna Elgh: Yes, but we are still in the phase where some of the company is some of the...more

...aged organisation without yourself taking these things really, really serious and acting like this yourself. You cannot get away from that you have a role model function partly. Andreas Flodström: And I think one of my wake ups was when we went for the first training in London, like two, maybe three yea...more

...ation who go like: "Let's make someone the boss of XYZ", which sounds maybe counterintuitive in terms of self-management, but maybe that's one of the roles as we have as founders to stand for - that this is the way we are doing things and we are not stepping away from some base factors of; this is how th...more

...care, and I'm taking ownership for my stuff. Whereas an executive reporting to a board actually has some existential responsibility. Or in my current role with Open Collective I'm looking after a certain part of it, and that's great. And the two co-founders are having conversations with investors and I'...more