Management

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Anna Elgh on self-managing teams and shifting conflicts at Svenska Retursystem

...in this method and we did the analysis on all our staff. And we also, throughout these years, we had discussions on how could we actually support our managers in a better way, how could we support them to be more involving less controlling? Because I think, and I haven't had the experience from previous com...more
...erience from previous companies where we have worked with the Lean Thinking Principles and continuous improvements, that it really depends on how the managers adopt this and how the manager behave in relation to the stuff and to get really all people involved. So things are going pretty well I think: we sa...more
...where we have worked with the Lean Thinking Principles and continuous improvements, that it really depends on how the managers adopt this and how the manager behave in relation to the stuff and to get really all people involved. So things are going pretty well I think: we saw huge improvements in our empl...more
...any and I think that I, myself have actually worked in that way in many companies and taking my decisions, but it hasn't been really approved from my managers of course, because it's not the way you do it. And it's actually forced me to change jobs and companies several times due to the fact that I felt too...more
... personal experience. So that's how I became interested in going that part. So when we started off with Tuff we decided to start with two teams: the management team and the IT team. And I think the IT sector is more advanced in this field because the IT team had already decided to start their journey for a s...more
...elt that they could proceed. And finally, after having done that process, they came to the conclusion that they didn't want to recreate a new CIO and manager, but when Tuff came along, we felt that they could really support this team and give them some good coaching. So that's why we chose to start with wi...more
...y support this team and give them some good coaching. So that's why we chose to start with with the IT team. And on the other hand, working with the management team was much tougher and it was a much more difficult story because I think the idea of giving more control and more mandates to the organisation an...more
...ns were made more and more -that was something that, for some members of the team, it wasn't their cup of tea. So we had several conflicts within the management team and so it was a quite a tough year, I must say - 2018, and by the end of that year, two members of the management team actually left the company...more
...d several conflicts within the management team and so it was a quite a tough year, I must say - 2018, and by the end of that year, two members of the management team actually left the company. And I think, looking back, it was something that happened because they didn't feel that this journey was in their int...more
...nted to try out this same way as the IT team had decided to go. And they both decided, actually, that they wanted to try it out and not recruit a new manager, which was really fascinating, and this was something totally new for me. And I think this was really the starting point on the natural dissolution o...more
...h was really fascinating, and this was something totally new for me. And I think this was really the starting point on the natural dissolution of the management and that actually happened around May 2019 -that we actually finally said that all the decisions are made in other groups and other meetings, why sho...more
...ally happened around May 2019 -that we actually finally said that all the decisions are made in other groups and other meetings, why should we have a management team? It's just adding more meetings, more reporting, and so on. So we took that decision, and we said we can always go back if we feel that this doe...more
...and they had just gone into the this messy middle. And I think the rest of the organisations were asking more questions about what are they doing? No management team. ...more
...about something that Miki Kashtan shared when I interviewed her for this podcast - that the shift has to happen in two directions from those who have management positions or have formerly been managers, to unlearn a lot of controlling behaviours. But also, there's a huge journey for people who are on the othe...more
...en I interviewed her for this podcast - that the shift has to happen in two directions from those who have management positions or have formerly been managers, to unlearn a lot of controlling behaviours. But also, there's a huge journey for people who are on the other end of the scale who are used to there ...more
...nlearn a lot of controlling behaviours. But also, there's a huge journey for people who are on the other end of the scale who are used to there being managers or a management team to make decisions that they can go to with complaints or problems and rely on, and so it can be painful in both ways, and I hear...more
...f controlling behaviours. But also, there's a huge journey for people who are on the other end of the scale who are used to there being managers or a management team to make decisions that they can go to with complaints or problems and rely on, and so it can be painful in both ways, and I hear that in what yo...more
...with complaints or problems and rely on, and so it can be painful in both ways, and I hear that in what you're sharing as well - that for many of the management team, the idea of giving away my authority and my mandate, that's not so appealing to them, and also for people on the other end - "what do you mean ...more
...away my authority and my mandate, that's not so appealing to them, and also for people on the other end - "what do you mean we're not going to have a management team?" - suddenly that opens up a whole world of uncertainty and completely unfamiliar. Anna Elgh: Yes. And questions: where are we heading? What is ...more
...I'm curious to talk a little bit about this piece you mentioned about shifting the climate. And you mentioned also about there being conflicts in the management team, for example. What have you learned from this experience about working climate and how important that is and how you can shift it together? Anna...more
...what are some of the things that you're most proud of? Anna Elgh: I think what I'm most proud of is actually that we had the courage to let go of the management team. It was a big step. But I think that we actually could walk the talk. I think you have to have that feeling every day that you fall in, down in ...more
...alk. I think you have to have that feeling every day that you fall in, down in your pitfalls every day. And I think that it has made me a more humble manager because I feel that there are new key learnings to do every day. I think I felt like a more experienced manager when I came to SRS than I do today. I...more
...ink that it has made me a more humble manager because I feel that there are new key learnings to do every day. I think I felt like a more experienced manager when I came to SRS than I do today. I have many new experiences but I had to relearn a lot of what was old truth to me exercising a managerial role. ...more
...Lisa Gill: How do you see your role now, now that the management team has dissolved? And I'm assuming those three teams you mentioned (IT and the other two teams) that they're still self-managed, that they haven't ...more
...ved? And I'm assuming those three teams you mentioned (IT and the other two teams) that they're still self-managed, that they haven't reinstalled the manager. How do you see your role as CEO now and I guess, what does leadership look like generally in SRS now? Anna Elgh: It's fantastic because I've releas...more
...e I'm needed, and I think I have more time to do the right things. And I think it's good because we have several positions that used to be in the old management team and I'm no longer their manager, they don't have a manager as the self-organised teams don't have a manager - so work more in groups where we ne...more
...me to do the right things. And I think it's good because we have several positions that used to be in the old management team and I'm no longer their manager, they don't have a manager as the self-organised teams don't have a manager - so work more in groups where we need to work. So I think, more and more...more
...And I think it's good because we have several positions that used to be in the old management team and I'm no longer their manager, they don't have a manager as the self-organised teams don't have a manager - so work more in groups where we need to work. So I think, more and more, that the organisation is ...more
...itions that used to be in the old management team and I'm no longer their manager, they don't have a manager as the self-organised teams don't have a manager - so work more in groups where we need to work. So I think, more and more, that the organisation is using me more as a support and someone to discuss...more
...Lisa Gill: And the other managers in the management team - did they reshape their roles? They found a different way to contribute to the organisation? Anna Elgh: Yes, but we are still...more
...Lisa Gill: And the other managers in the management team - did they reshape their roles? They found a different way to contribute to the organisation? Anna Elgh: Yes, but we are still in the phase wher...more
... a different way to contribute to the organisation? Anna Elgh: Yes, but we are still in the phase where some of the company is some of the teams have managers. So some of the managers from the management teams, they are still manager for their team and that's working fine. But of course, I think there is th...more
...ibute to the organisation? Anna Elgh: Yes, but we are still in the phase where some of the company is some of the teams have managers. So some of the managers from the management teams, they are still manager for their team and that's working fine. But of course, I think there is this question in the air: w...more
...isation? Anna Elgh: Yes, but we are still in the phase where some of the company is some of the teams have managers. So some of the managers from the management teams, they are still manager for their team and that's working fine. But of course, I think there is this question in the air: where are we going an...more
...re still in the phase where some of the company is some of the teams have managers. So some of the managers from the management teams, they are still manager for their team and that's working fine. But of course, I think there is this question in the air: where are we going and are every team supposed not ...more
... team and that's working fine. But of course, I think there is this question in the air: where are we going and are every team supposed not to have a manager? But we've never taken that decision. It has to evolve and it has to be driven from the organisation - what the next step is for different teams....more
... sounds like you've started with teams where there's the most or natural energy towards experimenting with this way of working, like the IT team, the Management team and then those other teams, and the managers left. So I think that's a good approach to not enforce this or to rush it, but to allow it to evolv...more
... the most or natural energy towards experimenting with this way of working, like the IT team, the Management team and then those other teams, and the managers left. So I think that's a good approach to not enforce this or to rush it, but to allow it to evolve in the organisation and as you say, now it's mor...more
.... So that is something that we have worked with, and I think it's getting better and better. Also, well, how do you set salaries when you don't have managers or half of the organisation have managers? How should we do this? And we also set up a cross functional team that worked with this and I think that w...more
... with, and I think it's getting better and better. Also, well, how do you set salaries when you don't have managers or half of the organisation have managers? How should we do this? And we also set up a cross functional team that worked with this and I think that was very, very good. But we have never had ...more
... a cross functional team that worked with this and I think that was very, very good. But we have never had a really good process even before with the managers because a lot of the people felt that it was unclear how do we set goals? What are the premises? Who is deciding? And a lot of people felt that it wa...more
...up in a process that is 100 times better than the way we used to do things and they managed to set up a process that could work both for teams with a manager and teams without a manager....more
...times better than the way we used to do things and they managed to set up a process that could work both for teams with a manager and teams without a manager....more
...ples of the salary process are? Anna Elgh: Yes, what I decided is that you will get a feedback from at least two of your colleagues and if you have a manager, you should get feedback from your manager. And then they have set up different criteria so you are measured in different kinds of areas - say five d...more
...Yes, what I decided is that you will get a feedback from at least two of your colleagues and if you have a manager, you should get feedback from your manager. And then they have set up different criteria so you are measured in different kinds of areas - say five different areas. And then actually you will ...more
...s even though we see such positive effects that some teams, other teams must find their way. I can just go to myself, I'm no longer the same to your managers that I used to be. So if the organisation should take a decision that "no we must go back, we must have more hierarchy", I don't think I'm the CEO fo...more

Pasteur Byabeza on transitioning to self-management at Davis College

...Lisa Gill: Pastor, thank you for being here. I know that at Davis College you decided to use holacracy as a self management system. And I think many listeners of the podcast will be familiar with holacracy. But I think it would be really interesting if you could share with...more
...veys that were conducted, to gauge faculty levels of stress. So this is what sparked the need or the desire to make some kind of radical shift in our management paradigm. From there, we did many training sessions with expert practitioners, and we researched a lot on many other companies and organisations that...more
... many training sessions with expert practitioners, and we researched a lot on many other companies and organisations that are already practicing self management. Based on that, we came to a conclusion that self management is worth trying. So the next step was then to test that hypothesis. And based on the fee...more
...earched a lot on many other companies and organisations that are already practicing self management. Based on that, we came to a conclusion that self management is worth trying. So the next step was then to test that hypothesis. And based on the feedback we received with the early success of the new system in...more
...today, what are some of the biggest shifts? Pasteur Byabeza: You would see a lot, of course. The difference is that before we transitioned into self management, standardisation and centralisation with our academics and curriculum were the norm. So decision making and access to information were a privilege of...more
... resulted in disempowerment, lack of trust and frustration. So people at the bottom seemed to only work for a paycheck. There was no job satisfaction managers - middle managers would rely completely on micromanaging, using tight controlling mechanisms in order to get things done. Sometimes the result were ...more
...powerment, lack of trust and frustration. So people at the bottom seemed to only work for a paycheck. There was no job satisfaction managers - middle managers would rely completely on micromanaging, using tight controlling mechanisms in order to get things done. Sometimes the result were there, but at what...more
...eeling of fulfillment, and that's what you need when you are an employee somewhere. But now, it's completely the opposite of how things were. So self management - in a short period of time - has resulted in empowerment of every employee. There's more transparency, more accountability, more freedom to think di...more
...ns. I think the first one is I've learned to have an optimistic, positive view of my colleagues. A lead link is a little different from a traditional manager - but it is somehow the closest to it, compared to other roles. So when I say I've learned to have an optimistic positive view of my colleagues, what...more
...lf managed circle. For a self managed team to be able to make good decisions, they really need to have all the information. Before we shifted to self management, as I've said, only a handful of people at the top had access to information and people at the bottom of the pyramid could not understand the rationa...more
...ople tend to be more authentic - more true to themselves. And even more responsible. You know, traditionally, all you would really care about is your managers appreciation of your work. It used to feel like everyone is working to please one person - their direct supervisor. And that's not really good. So it...more
...Lisa Gill: Thank you for sharing. It's really interesting to hear that some real themes are coming through since shifting to self management, and information is being distributed. So suddenly, everyone has much more transparent access to information, and also the power to take part in and ...more
...ecisions that affect them. And this shift, as you describe it from having almost two jobs - my actual job, and my job of looking good or pleasing my manager - towards my job being about fulfilling the purpose of my role in the organisation and being much more connected to that. Pasteur Byabeza: Yes, that'...more
...e in the organisation and being much more connected to that. Pasteur Byabeza: Yes, that's true. You feel like all that matters to you is the way your manager sees you. And you can maneuver and find all sorts of ways to please your manager. And that's not fulfilling in the long run....more
..., that's true. You feel like all that matters to you is the way your manager sees you. And you can maneuver and find all sorts of ways to please your manager. And that's not fulfilling in the long run....more
...ose are very simple techniques that I believe people can be very intentional about and develop. So they were really helpful in our transition to self management....more
...e and how that has played a part in this shift? Pasteur Byabeza: That's a great question. I would say that our thought is that the role of culture in management is poorly understood. People should know that values, norms and beliefs derived from certain group of people will definitely affect the functioning o...more
...gure - a personal authority figure, or maybe to speak up publicly against that authority figure. So this seemingly would work in favor of traditional management structure and a little bit against flat organisational organisational structure. This cultural element of submission to authority helps those tradit...more
...ture and a little bit against flat organisational organisational structure. This cultural element of submission to authority helps those traditional managers who take a lot of pleasure in controlling and micromanaging - because they have a lot of interest in having their orders strictly obeyed and accepte...more
...oney for you to see. So I've noticed - when people in an organisation are accustomed to receiving orders and instructions about what to do from their managers, because it is in their culture, it takes them time to get used to taking the lead and getting things done without waiting on anyone to tell them wha...more
...ly seem to exercise their power to the fullest. And there is that tendency to want to seek consent, or approval from some individuals - mostly former managers. You see, part of this, I would say is because Africans lean on this African cultural perspective which is linked to this submission to authority, so...more
...: A quick reflection on that theme - because I've heard almost exactly the same thing from people in India, for example, when they have explored self management - and I'm wondering if that dynamic you're describing is a product of colonisation? Or if that's really an inherently African dynamic - do you see wh...more
... really clarifying. You were going to share some other observations from a cultural perspective. Pasteur Byabeza: Sure. I would say that most African managers display some authoritarian work orientation, as a result of what I've just said. You realise that they are mainly intent on controlling or micromanag...more
...ult of what I've just said. You realise that they are mainly intent on controlling or micromanaging. As I pointed out before, you would think African managers, use authoritarian styles to manage people because maybe some employees lacked some technical skills to make good decisions. And then they have to re...more
...also deeply rooted into our culture. And I believe, when you mentioned things like united teamwork, solidarity, they work a lot in favour of the self management paradigm....more
... change, of course, you expect some people to resist. I would say it took some of my colleagues a lot of time to fully embrace the philosophy of self management. You see, as you know, operating in a self managed team requires learning and unlearning certain things. So I can confidently say that some of my col...more
...leagues never fully embraced this shift, because different people have different needs and desires. So, I've seen some people - especially my former managers - behaving from a place of insecurity when we started rolling out self management. You see, a lot of energy had to be spent. We invested in getting ...more
...needs and desires. So, I've seen some people - especially my former managers - behaving from a place of insecurity when we started rolling out self management. You see, a lot of energy had to be spent. We invested in getting everybody on board, and we faced resistence from one team, with some people sending...more
...istence from one team, with some people sending videos. And again, of course, you're confronted with a dilemma. You don't want people to operate in a management mode that they don't think is the right for them, or maybe for the institution - that's in the videos, people can have their their interpretation. An...more
...allenges, but that's actually the main one. Another challenge that I believe we face is that no other higher learning institution had practiced self management before. So that was a very big challenge. So in an African context, or across the globe, I do not think that there are many higher learning instituti...more
...lenge. So in an African context, or across the globe, I do not think that there are many higher learning institution that practice holacracy and self management. So, because of that, you can understand why most people were a little bit skeptical. We like the idea of self management. It's brilliant - but is it...more
...practice holacracy and self management. So, because of that, you can understand why most people were a little bit skeptical. We like the idea of self management. It's brilliant - but is it really something that can work in a higher learning institution, or other organisations, or practice holacracy from other...more
...lacracy from other fields? Does it work for our business? We don't know, we don't have any other higher level institution that already practiced self management. So sometimes people may not want to try it out. Or maybe they can be reluctant because they don't have a reference. And that was really one of the ...more
...things to get done, there should be a certain control mechanism with hierarchical positions. So for them, saying that things are getting done without managers, without positions - for them, it's unthinkable. So that was the challenge - because they themselves are built, those organisations themselves, are h...more
... productive. We've seen that they start having job fulfillment - you know, you enjoy what you're doing. You feel happy - that's the freedom that self management has come along with. That contentment, in that the need to, you know, do something more - to be creative, to innovate, the need to utilise your poten...more
...our potential to the fullest. You see all of that, and many other things that I don't mention are things that have come along with this shift to self management. And I am confident - as I said. I hope that the future is going to be bright. ...more
...people listening who are perhaps in higher learning institutions, or in schools or universities or any kind of situation where they're exploring self management as well - what would be your words of advice or encouragement to someone who has walked this path? Pasteur Byabeza: Yes, that's interesting. Of cours...more
...e on this journey of discovering new ways of working together. The first one is it's very important to set up institutional culture that fosters self management. For our kids, we have this amazing cultural code - which is built around seven pillars. I can mention three of them. These are my favorites. And I b...more
...I can mention three of them. These are my favorites. And I believe if they are really well practiced, they can really be a strong foundation for self management. We practice radical transparency. That means being open and honest with others and ourselves. That's really important, and has really helped us a g...more
...e three together have really made a tremendous impact in our transition. So it's very important to set up institutional cultures that can foster self management. Another piece of advice to our to listeners is that you shouldn't expect perfect inclusion. So what I mean here is that there is no single manageme...more
...nagement. Another piece of advice to our to listeners is that you shouldn't expect perfect inclusion. So what I mean here is that there is no single management system that will be loved by everybody in the organisation - because people have diverse interest in needs. Some people will prefer the traditional m...more
...t system that will be loved by everybody in the organisation - because people have diverse interest in needs. Some people will prefer the traditional management style, because their needs are met this way. Or maybe for them, it's just okay. So as an institution, I believe you have to make a decision based on ...more
... based on reason. It's very important to have enough reasons to make the shift. So if you believe you have enough reasons to make the shift from this management paradigm to the other, please go ahead and do it....more
...Lisa Gill: Thank you. I'm so appreciative, listening to you, because it's amazing to me that you're quite early in this self management journey - and yet talking to you it's as if I'm talking to someone who has been doing this for four years or something. You know, I've spoken to peop...more

Bill Fischer and Simone Cicero on Haier and the entrepreneurial organisation

...ve it was, a young fellow by the name of Zhang Ruimin had moved from the light industry bureau within the Qingdao government to take over the general management position at what was called Qingdao Refrigerators. And the reason he moved is because they couldn’t find anybody who wanted to run the organisation. ...more
...s to work and life and everything that makes this crazy, unique culture. For example, it’s a great mix of some of the most interesting and important management thinkers from the West. Zhang Ruimin is such a big fan of Peter Drucker’s work, but really Zhang Ruimin is speaking not only from Western thinking, f...more
...the West. Zhang Ruimin is such a big fan of Peter Drucker’s work, but really Zhang Ruimin is speaking not only from Western thinking, from the modern management theory, but also from the ancient Greeks. It’s not uncommon that you are there and he quotes** **Thales or Apollo’s oracle at Delphi... And on the ot...more
...novation on a consistent basis — as a differentiator. I teach at a business school [IMD] where most of the participants who come to our programs are managers from mature, relatively old economy industries. And they’re looking for an answer. And I think what the popular management market tries to give them ...more
...who come to our programs are managers from mature, relatively old economy industries. And they’re looking for an answer. And I think what the popular management market tries to give them is often you know, kids running around in Silicon Valley in flip flops. But that’s not the reality that they’re going to fa...more
...le leader, you are empowered, there’s no other way because you understand that it’s not about you, it’s about all the other people that engage in the management and in the execution of the business vision. And so you tend to create this culture of having everybody at the same level, especially when everybody ...more
...omer…and I agree with that. **But what I’ve seen in so many organisations is that unless you have a very self-secure, self-confident, courageous, top management, you’re not going to get that because it’s only a visionary, self-confident top management that can unleash bottom-up suggestions and not take them a...more
...u have a very self-secure, self-confident, courageous, top management, you’re not going to get that because it’s only a visionary, self-confident top management that can unleash bottom-up suggestions and not take them as threats. **And so, you know, I think in a sense, Zhang Ruimin really plays that role very...more
...s curious about the human, relational aspects and what is the kind of mindset that’s needed for this way of working to thrive, especially if you’re a manager. And often when there’s a transformation an organisation, like Zappos or organisations that transform into something more decentralised — it can be v...more
...a transformation an organisation, like Zappos or organisations that transform into something more decentralised — it can be very difficult for former managers to make that shift, to unlearn that conditioning of being responsible, solving problems for other people, making decisions, not being transparent, an...more
... responsible, solving problems for other people, making decisions, not being transparent, and so on. I’m curious what that journey has been like for managers because if the if the top management — even if Zhang Ruimin is the kind of progressive leader he is — if he has a COO or someone else in the top mana...more
...other people, making decisions, not being transparent, and so on. I’m curious what that journey has been like for managers because if the if the top management — even if Zhang Ruimin is the kind of progressive leader he is — if he has a COO or someone else in the top management team who is a command-and-cont...more
...gers because if the if the top management — even if Zhang Ruimin is the kind of progressive leader he is — if he has a COO or someone else in the top management team who is a command-and-control bureaucrat, then it’s not going to work, right? How are people supported terms of those kinds of skills? Or is the...more
...pieces in the changes. At no time has Haier ever asked its employees to take a flying leap into the unknown. They’re still using the same performance management system they used 35 or 40 years ago. It’s been adapted and adjusted and digitalised and all that sort of stuff. But you know, it’s still the same sys...more
...verse architecture, because it’s been enabling people to be able to become more successful. And I think that’s really interesting, when we deal with managers of large companies — not necessarily Haier, but large companies in general — and we talk about the Haier experience, they often think about their own...more
...East… I think one interesting point of Haier when they take over existing companies… Zhang Rumin once said to me that they don’t really do helicopter management, or they don’t bring you the management from China, which is fairly common when Chinese companies are taking over European companies. So these are t...more
...aier when they take over existing companies… Zhang Rumin once said to me that they don’t really do helicopter management, or they don’t bring you the management from China, which is fairly common when Chinese companies are taking over European companies. So these are the three pillars. It’s a kind of simplif...more
...r and organisations like Buurtzorg are using technology as a way of kind of decentralising, in a way of kind of being able to get rid of a lot of the management functions — because you can automate a lot of things and use technology to really empower people to do things that perhaps previously managers might ...more
... the management functions — because you can automate a lot of things and use technology to really empower people to do things that perhaps previously managers might have done. So yeah, hopefully it will inspire… B Fischer: I’m interested in how Simone would react to this, but I think that Haier has not use...more
...h, hopefully it will inspire… B Fischer: I’m interested in how Simone would react to this, but I think that Haier has not used technology to replace managers. I think that there was a large exit of managers in the early 2000s. But that was because they changed the organisational structure. And they gave mi...more
...erested in how Simone would react to this, but I think that Haier has not used technology to replace managers. I think that there was a large exit of managers in the early 2000s. But that was because they changed the organisational structure. And they gave middle managers the opportunity to figure out how t...more
...hink that there was a large exit of managers in the early 2000s. But that was because they changed the organisational structure. And they gave middle managers the opportunity to figure out how they could contribute to the organisation…and my understanding is some decided that they would rather be middle man...more
...ers the opportunity to figure out how they could contribute to the organisation…and my understanding is some decided that they would rather be middle managers somewhere else, than go through that trouble. But I think that the other thing that has happened at Haier is that Haier has not only changed the org...more
...ike water. It’s being selfless”. It’s really about kind of surfing with what’s going on. And Alicia Hennig in this beautiful paper called ‘Daoism in Management’, she speaks about this and she says this is not going to give us many answers in terms of how we create sustainable corporations. But the question i...more
...ell as structural shifts, there -needs to be two shifts within. And one is in the people who have power — or have previously had power — in this case managers. And the other is in people who don’t have power — or historically haven’t had power — you know, employees. So like you said in that in that example...more
...hese kinds of organisations that the people who really thrive are people who are either young and don’t have much experience of a traditional kind of management bureaucracy, or they’ve come from some other context, which is so different that they’re not kind of porting over any of those learned habits. But fo...more
...neurial asymmetric effort into putting all of yourself into making something happen. And I know that for those that are, for example, into collective management and collaborative decision-making, all the stories they have been telling us for decades, and some of them are true for sure, but some of them can be...more
...d is, for me the biggest change in my life over the last two years is working with Simone, and watching how the canvases he creates, which I think if managers are really interested about this really brings them in and lets them understand the managerial choices they have to make and the consequences of thos...more

Jos de Blok on Buurtzorg and the virtues of humanising, not protocolising

...ns in that sector who are creating autonomous teams, they're bringing in coaches to support them, but they come across challenges, like, for example, managers feeling really threatened by it and saying, "Oh, so now I'm no longer a manager, I'm a coach", or, "does that mean that I'm not valued anymore? Is th...more
...to support them, but they come across challenges, like, for example, managers feeling really threatened by it and saying, "Oh, so now I'm no longer a manager, I'm a coach", or, "does that mean that I'm not valued anymore? Is that because you want to pay me less?" And people at the other end of the spectrum...more
...use you want to pay me less?" And people at the other end of the spectrum feel sort of scared to step in and are so used to having the structure of a manager telling them what to do, or appraisals or whatever, that it also feels quite challenging and intimidating. So you hear leaders saying, "We've created...more
...ng on), there is a transformation on a societal level. Then you'll get all these complications throughout the process, because then it affects these management positions; how do we deal with that? But if it's built on something you want to achieve together, then people will also say, "Okay, how can I come to...more
...hing is to start talking with people instead of telling them things. It's these expectations (and that's also the difficulty) these expectations from managers and leaders in the positions they have, are creating a behaviour that people are easily giving their opinions on everything. So because you are a man...more
...ers and leaders in the positions they have, are creating a behaviour that people are easily giving their opinions on everything. So because you are a manager in this position and it's not so easy to just walk up to some people and say: "How do you think about this?". In some organisations people are expect...more
...s on your more or less, (I call it) cohort characteristics. So if you say the soft side of you - I believe that the soft side of people who have been managers and leaders for a long time, has been underdeveloped. So for example, just showing your emotions: crying when you should cry, talking about your doub...more
...r people, especially in organisations, maybe slightly different to Buurtzorg where there's lots of cross-functional teams and complexity and a mix of managers and I think in an organisation where there's very competent nurses, they're really kind of driving most of the organisation supported by coaches in a...more
...kind of routines, what kind of principles, what kind of expectations, guidelines. Also in the back office, for example. So if you say we don't have a management structure, what will be the supportive system? What kind of support do we need, and we want? So the strategy on building should be very clear. And I ...more
...heir daily work. That's the beginning". Language for me feels like when I did the MBA education, I thought it helped me to understand how leaders and managers think. But on the other hand it's strange that when they are all using the same language, that there is not any space anymore for something different...more
...at when they are all using the same language, that there is not any space anymore for something different. So I made a difference between managing or management and organising. And of course you can have all kinds of mixes. But I think if you say: "Okay, I want to use all the intelligence and all the capacity...more
...e capacity in how people can organise, and I want that they feel ownership about what they're doing, then you should focus more on organising than on management. And you can use all kinds of management elements in this process, but it's quite a big change, in my opinion. And then language comes very close. B...more
...d I want that they feel ownership about what they're doing, then you should focus more on organising than on management. And you can use all kinds of management elements in this process, but it's quite a big change, in my opinion. And then language comes very close. But I hear a lot when our nurses are in a ...more
...'s quite a big change, in my opinion. And then language comes very close. But I hear a lot when our nurses are in a meeting, when there are a lot of managers or leaders that they say: "We really don't understand what they're talking about", and when you ask the managers what they are really talking about, ...more
...n a meeting, when there are a lot of managers or leaders that they say: "We really don't understand what they're talking about", and when you ask the managers what they are really talking about, I think that a lot of them even don't know exactly what they're talking about. So that's my perception. I've been...more
... are really talking about, I think that a lot of them even don't know exactly what they're talking about. So that's my perception. I've been a lot in management teams and I've talked a lot with CEOs from all kinds of companies and when I see this language, then I see uncertainty - I see that people don't real...more
...so if you have different reflections from different perspectives, together it creates new insights. And one of my observations is that if you look at management trainings, and also this leadership trend, from a management perspective, creates kind of a monoculture, using the same patterns, using the same word...more
...ves, together it creates new insights. And one of my observations is that if you look at management trainings, and also this leadership trend, from a management perspective, creates kind of a monoculture, using the same patterns, using the same words all over the world, though it feels comfortable, because yo...more

Frederic Laloux with an invitation to reclaim integrity and aliveness

...” He was using very simple but very real harsh words, but that was okay. Because now that I know, we’re going to change, and he started engaging his management team. And at first, the management team was pretty uncomfortable, and they were making jokes and saying , “What are we gonna do? You’re gonna raise s...more
...y real harsh words, but that was okay. Because now that I know, we’re going to change, and he started engaging his management team. And at first, the management team was pretty uncomfortable, and they were making jokes and saying , “What are we gonna do? You’re gonna raise sheep now, are you?” And what I love...more
... this question to you? F Laloux: I mean, I think this question of the plan B is relevant at every level of the organisation, right? So in the middle management or somewhere, if I’m afraid that if I get fired, you know, it’s the end of my world, then by definition, I won’t take many risks. And some people are...more
...es. One of the companies I think is really interesting to watch right now, a really big one, is Decathlon, this sports goods company. They have a top management but it’s sympathetic to a lot of things, you know, self-management and so on. But there have been people at the bottom and the middle of the pyramid ...more
...ave returned items and sell them at a 20% discount.” And other people from other stores looked at this and she just had to sort of convince her store manager but no one beyond that. And that was that was it. So here’s this 23-year-old that was willing to say, you know, “I’m not okay with this”, like, “I’m ...more
...just for my brand… Let’s reduce by 40%, in so many years, you know, the CO2 footprint.” Like, how bold is that? To say “I’m not gonna wait for my top management, I’m just gonna set this target. And, you know, screw it if you don’t like it! Like, worst case fire me!” I mean, she played it a little bit more cle...more
...rowth pain, for example, where you say it’s natural to experience some kind of loss, in a way, like to let go of, for example, especially if you’re a manager, those status symbols and that’s okay. ...more
...olding you back. And so for instance, one of the projects I would look at is the systems quadrants, and say, “Yeah, but most likely, there is still a manager there. Somebody who will fall back. And so people are clever. They know this.” So, yeah, I’ve been given permission. But I still know that the manage...more
...anager there. Somebody who will fall back. And so people are clever. They know this.” So, yeah, I’ve been given permission. But I still know that the manager is there anyway. So if things get bad he or she will deal with it. So something shifts when we suddenly shift that system and the team is on its own...more
...f things get bad he or she will deal with it. So something shifts when we suddenly shift that system and the team is on its own and there is no more manager to fall back on. They immediately see if they do a good or bad job, you know, because their client is happy or unhappy. Trust me, they will start mak...more
...ause their client is happy or unhappy. Trust me, they will start making decisions. But if the system isn’t set up that way, if they’re still having a manager and if they don’t see whether what they do makes other people happy or unhappy because they’re shielded from that reality, then yeah, most likely the...more
...orward to the day where there’s a tipping point. And people rather than looking at these things as outliers and pretty radical go: Oh, you still have managers and management, you still do that? Where that suddenly that becomes outdated. And we never know how these norms flip. But we know that that social no...more
... day where there’s a tipping point. And people rather than looking at these things as outliers and pretty radical go: Oh, you still have managers and management, you still do that? Where that suddenly that becomes outdated. And we never know how these norms flip. But we know that that social norms slip, that ...more
... And it’s a trivial example, but it just shows how quickly deep social norms can can flip. And I’m looking forward to the day where that happens with management. And I feel that COVID is an interesting accelerator in a way. Who knows how it’s gonna play out, but I think on all of the three breakthroughs righ...more
...en higher. And then I think the next question that a lot of organisations aren’t asking yet, but it’s gonna come is then: But what are we paying the managers to do? And they might come at it from the wrong angle, which is cost cutting, and we’re paying all these managers… but this question is going to come...more
...is then: But what are we paying the managers to do? And they might come at it from the wrong angle, which is cost cutting, and we’re paying all these managers… but this question is going to come up. So I think this is going to be a big accelerator where people are just going to wonder, like, what is the rol...more
...his question is going to come up. So I think this is going to be a big accelerator where people are just going to wonder, like, what is the role of a manager in this distributed, socially distanced world? I think the piece on wholeness is quite fascinating where people see each other’s interiors and homes...more

Michael Y. Lee on lessons from researching self-managing organisations

...e or personal development or something like that. And other people feel that it's kind of cold, or a bit like 'old-management world', because it has 'management' in the title or 'managing' in the title. As someone that was pulling together all this different research, did you have any debates about what term ...more
... self-management is that, in many ways, self-management and self-managing organisations are really trying to incorporate, essentially, just effective management, good, effective management that I think every organisation out there is seeking. So in many ways, I think what enables or what are the pieces that m...more
... many ways, self-management and self-managing organisations are really trying to incorporate, essentially, just effective management, good, effective management that I think every organisation out there is seeking. So in many ways, I think what enables or what are the pieces that make self-management work, ar...more
...he underlying principles of self-management, and reinforce the shift in authority. Because I think what we do know from research in organiaations and management is that, power, even once it's been formally decentralised, has a very very natural and strong tendency to recentralise informally or formally. So, y...more
...r Coach, and in many ways, I think, going back to my response to the earlier question, these are, I think, good templates and metaphors for effective management, in any type of structure, in any type of organisation. We talk a lot about managers in hierarchical structures, wanting to be more empowering to mak...more
...these are, I think, good templates and metaphors for effective management, in any type of structure, in any type of organisation. We talk a lot about managers in hierarchical structures, wanting to be more empowering to make sure that their direct reports are feeling engaged and motivated. And so these trad...more
...e more empowering to make sure that their direct reports are feeling engaged and motivated. And so these traditional, I think, top-down approaches to management, even in hierarchies aren't working and have probably never worked. And so I think these are in many ways, the same principles of leadership and of m...more
...t, even in hierarchies aren't working and have probably never worked. And so I think these are in many ways, the same principles of leadership and of management that are applicable in any organisation, but I think particularly so in self-managing structures....more
... kind of organisation, not just a self-managing organisation, and yet it's so fascinating to me that these aren't really new ideas - there have been management and business books written about this stuff for decades I think, and there's clearly a big gap between the theory and the practice. So what are your ...more
...ies and mindsets that are needed for effective self-management are probably no different from the skills, abilities and mindsets needed for effective management in a hierarchical structure. I think it's more the issue is that we've become so accepting of mediocre or bad management within hierarchical structur...more
...indsets needed for effective management in a hierarchical structure. I think it's more the issue is that we've become so accepting of mediocre or bad management within hierarchical structures, that we no longer ask ourselves or demand that of managers in a hierarchical structure. But I think what self-managin...more
...sue is that we've become so accepting of mediocre or bad management within hierarchical structures, that we no longer ask ourselves or demand that of managers in a hierarchical structure. But I think what self-managing structures do is they make those deficiencies more apparent. So they make those individua...more
...ets to effectively manage. It becomes very obvious in a kind of self-managing structure such that it's harder to ignore. And so, I do think effective management and effective self-management require levels of psychological development. I like to call it 'the higher game': the ability to lead without control, ...more
...to be competitive or whatever, and then it kind of becomes about self-management instead of about the purpose of the organisation, and using whatever management system best helps you meet that purpose. So, yeah, I think that's interesting. And yeah, and it's also interesting and something that I've been wonde...more
...organisations, you still have tensions, it's just we don't really talk about them and we don't really know what to do with them and we think it's the manager's responsibility to do something with them. Michael Y. Lee: Yeah, or we're so used to working in these structures that we no longer become aware of t...more
...he existing one works, we're just so used to it, we've just inherited it and we've assumed that that's always been the case, but it's a fairly recent management innovation, and there's not a lot of evidence that it is effective. So it's funny, isn't it? The kind of habit mindset and the fear of anything new o...more
...and insights from these experiments in new ways of organising and realise that actually, we can bring those into any organisation? So when I talk to managers and leaders it's like: "you could do this tomorrow. You could actually adopt many of these practices tomorrow in your team and organisation without e...more

Miki Kashtan on the three shifts needed for self-managing organisations to thrive

...n that's more human, more adult-adult. So what for you is most inspiring about the potential of Nonviolent Communication in organisations and in self management? Miki Kashtan: Thank you. I think in the moment, as you're asking this, what comes to me most strongly, is that the focus on needs is a very powerful...more
...are expected to do things that don't want to do, you will need force to keep them in place. This is this starts with socialisation and continues with management. So that's that's the biggest potential that I see is it is a revised organising principle that if we declare that all our actions are designed to at...more
...ing we're really struggling with is, you know, how do we get people to take a shared ownership of the company? To really step in? We've declared self management, why are these jobs that are maybe less desirable or something, why aren't people really owning them?" And and when you shared what you shared just t...more
.... And, again, I think in self managing systems, this is another total paradigm shift. And it's more complex I'm learning than just "let's change this manager-subordinate power dynamic." There's so many other power dynamics and relationships to power that are sort of invisible, I think, to many of us. So I ...more
...tion, I think for this topic. Miki Kashtan: Yeah, first of all, I want to give credit to the woman who invented this distinction, who was very much a management person, but early, early thinker that did massive radical things that nobody knows about her. Her name is Mary Parker Follett, have you heard of her?...more
...e in the command and control world, so many times I talk with people, you know, at the lower level of the hierarchy who say they are such idiots, the managers because they decide things they think they know, but they make this decision and they don't ask us and we have to implement it. And we know this is n...more
...orked with a group of union activists and there was a very profound moment when they became willing to admit that if they had power, they would treat management as poorly as management was treating them. So the impulse to power over has been instilled in us, but the capacity is given to us by having structura...more
...ion activists and there was a very profound moment when they became willing to admit that if they had power, they would treat management as poorly as management was treating them. So the impulse to power over has been instilled in us, but the capacity is given to us by having structural power. So a person who...more
...cause if you don't change the systems and the agreements within which you operate, then it requires individuals to be saints. So ultimately, for self management to really be institutionalised, you need to have clear agreements, clear criteria, about when you do this, when you do that, how you function and all...more
...at are necessary I think are so helpful to bear in mind. And I think you touched on something there about agreements and structures in order for self management to work. And I think one of the myths or misconceptions about self management is it's no structures or, you know, let's get rid of structures and pro...more
...ed on something there about agreements and structures in order for self management to work. And I think one of the myths or misconceptions about self management is it's no structures or, you know, let's get rid of structures and processes. You know, it's sort of free for all. And I think there are some parall...more
...ly replicate the existing structures that we have in a patriarchal, capitalist, white supremacist, etc. world. Meanwhile people are trying to do self management and going "why isn't it happening?" It's not happening because you didn't set up the systems and structures to support it in happening....more
...al power, the people who don't, and then the system itself. In terms of those first two, in a quote unquote traditional organisation, it might be the managers and the non managers. So, beyond structures and and systems, what are the sort of human shifts that need to happen? What can I do as a human being to...more
...who don't, and then the system itself. In terms of those first two, in a quote unquote traditional organisation, it might be the managers and the non managers. So, beyond structures and and systems, what are the sort of human shifts that need to happen? What can I do as a human being to develop the mindset,...more
...talked about... So I guess in closing thoughts, then, what would be one piece of advice that you would give to listeners who are on some kind of self management journey of their own? Miki Kashtan: It can be daunting to make the shifts. I mean, I'm just listening through the ears of someone who hasn't done all...more
... someone who hasn't done all the work that I've done in the last 20 something years. And it's like, "oh my god, maybe I would just rather not do self management". So I want to say, it may be daunting. And in my experience, every step of the way, yields more freedom, and more collaboration, both. So you take b...more

Gary Hamel on busting bureaucracy for good
...Lisa Gill: So, Gary, it's been just over 10 years since your book 'The Future of Management' came out. What is your thinking about the current landscape of management? Is it what you hoped for, or do you think we still have a long way to go?...more
...ill: So, Gary, it's been just over 10 years since your book 'The Future of Management' came out. What is your thinking about the current landscape of management? Is it what you hoped for, or do you think we still have a long way to go? Gary Hamel: Kind of both. I'm pleased at some progress, but mindful of the...more
...me when administrative skills were rare, and our organisations were growing very quickly and we needed to create this new class of individuals called managers who are experts at the administrative routines. Now, increasingly, administrative skills are a commodity. Maybe not quite yet at the level of algorit...more
...view recently, and you were saying that despite all of this interest in flatter organisations, actually many large organisations still have layers of management and you have this Bureaucracy Mass Index. Can you say a little bit about what that is and what the cost of bureaucracy is? Gary Hamel: Well, I just g...more
... so on. Neither is it even the business model, although most understand that it has to change radically today. Most actually understand that it's the management model - it takes too long to get decisions made. People feel, and are, too disempowered. There are not enough employees who think and act like owners...more
...ity to stop, production lines and to become problem solvers. That was an enormous step - to yield your power. In a way, the job description of every manager is to control - that's the synonym, to manage means to control. And your value is demonstrated by more rules, more control, more supervision, more ov...more
...lem-solving territory is a matrix. Not to make this sound too complicated, because it's really not. But a matrix where on one axis, you have the core management systems - how we hire, how we promote, how we compensate, how we plan, how we allocate resources, how we coordinate, and on the other axis, you have ...more
...ening that process up to them. So we did this over about eight weeks - each week, a new principle. Each week, we're asking people to kind of hack the management model. So we had more than 800 hacks. At the end of eight weeks. We had a simple little algorithm that asked people to review their colleagues hacks....more
...arning that we have to do from this kind of bureaucratic industrial model that we've all been conditioned into? Both if we're employees, and if we're managers? Yes. I think just as bureaucracy in a way undermines our organisations - it infects them with maladies that make them inertial and incremental - I a...more
... - because I often find I hear stories from leaders when they tried to initiate a transformation in their company to exaggerate and they declare self management - and people sort of lay in wait, and they're still not stepping into their new authority or initiative. And leaders tell me how frustrating this is....more
...t that? Gary Hamel: I don't have enough experience to comment on any particular model. But I'm very dubious that we're at a point in the evolution of management - two dot zero, or whatever we might call it - that you can just layer in a new model. Because what I see - and I think my colleagues have done as mu...more
...did that come from?' And that forces you to go back and do your theory. And I think we've almost completely lost that kind of experimental vibe in in management research. And we also have kind of lost, like real nobility in what we're trying to accomplish. I sometimes tell my colleagues who wish managers woul...more
...in management research. And we also have kind of lost, like real nobility in what we're trying to accomplish. I sometimes tell my colleagues who wish managers would pay more attention to their work, that if, when you write your journal articles, you're neither profound nor practical, and you don't give them...more
...m traction on Monday morning - why are they going to pay attention? And, we have amazingly, wonderfully interesting problems to solve in the world of management and organisation. But I think most of us just are still playing at the fringes....more
...Lisa Gill: So on that note, what do you think we all could do in order to make the next ten years of management innovation more fruitful, or to move in the right direction? Gary Hamel: I think the first and maybe easiest thing to do is if you work at any level ...more
...s, they have HR and finance - and every single process is forever in beta. And they're just constantly evolving. And other's - they're evolving their management model at least as fast as they're evolving their business model. I think there's not one person at the top thinking all of this up. It's this ethos t...more

Amy Edmondson on psychological safety and the future of work

...LG: And that’s a good lead into talking about leadership because managers and leaders of course are really influential in creating that environment, that climate of psychosocial safety, or not. And my sense is that, especia...more
...eople. Nowadays it’s not radical. But in practice, my feeling is it’s more challenging. Perhaps because we’re not practiced in doing it. So for those managers or leaders who are thinking: “Psychological safety sounds good, but how do I do that?”, what are you finding is most helpful in terms of supporting t...more
...gical safety sounds good, but how do I do that?”, what are you finding is most helpful in terms of supporting them in that shift? AE: You know, many managers don’t have enough emotional intelligence to be aware that other people may be holding back, or feeling afraid, or not asking for help when they need ...more
...help when they need help, or not making an observation or offering an idea, even though they have something that could be quite relevant… And so many managers, in fact maybe even most at least initially, are sort of blind to that. And there are some things I think that anybody can do to create a more psych...more
...there are some things I think that anybody can do to create a more psychologically safe environment. But first I wanna say, you started out by saying managers or leaders and I think being a manager is an official job, someone says: “You’re a manager, you’re gonna manage those people or that process” and tha...more
...dy can do to create a more psychologically safe environment. But first I wanna say, you started out by saying managers or leaders and I think being a manager is an official job, someone says: “You’re a manager, you’re gonna manage those people or that process” and that’s what you do. But leaders, I think l...more
...ronment. But first I wanna say, you started out by saying managers or leaders and I think being a manager is an official job, someone says: “You’re a manager, you’re gonna manage those people or that process” and that’s what you do. But leaders, I think leadership is a function. Leadership is an activity t...more
...leadership is a function. Leadership is an activity that can be done by anybody. We often think of leadership as maybe even a higher level or form of management, but that’s leadership with a capital ‘L’, maybe, it’s the CEO or the business unit manager. But leadership with a small ‘l’ is the small things you ...more
... of leadership as maybe even a higher level or form of management, but that’s leadership with a capital ‘L’, maybe, it’s the CEO or the business unit manager. But leadership with a small ‘l’ is the small things you do to make a difference, to influence others… Even a subordinate can exercise leadership tha...more
...all things you do to make a difference, to influence others… Even a subordinate can exercise leadership that makes your life at work better. So what managers can do is exercise more leadership, and exercise leadership over the culture or the climate. To me, the most important thing they can do is just star...more
... ahead, you know: “Wow, we’ve got this really challenging project. I’m excited about it but I’m nervous also.” So when I say something like that as a manager, I just make it so much easier for other people to say that too. I like to call this “framing the work.” Like, “it’s challenging and it’s exciting. A...more
...’ve shared in those two answers for me is about transparency and facing things as they are, instead of what I think we’re conditioned to do, often as managers, which is trying to pep talk or take care of people or set expectations that things must go smoothly, and it’s really not that at all. AE: It’s not ...more
...LG: That’s helpful. You mentioned before about this distinction between management and leadership and that anyone, regardless of their role, can step into leadership of some kind. And I’m thinking about in a self-managing team or or...more
...arn from that? What else could we try? And what contributed to that not working?” AE: And what people don’t realise is that often plain old top-down management isn’t working but we don’t know it because no one’s speaking up about the parts not working. ...more

Edwin Jansen on how people adopt self-management at Fitzii
...of the paradigm - if we shift the paradigm those limitations can be gone. And so we started off saying, "What are all of the processes that require a manager?" So at the time, it was myself and one other person who had managerial authority, so there's obviously hiring and firing and performance reviews and...more
...n it into something that we celebrate. Edwin Jansen: Yes, and for me personally I realised fairly early on that it was important for me as the former manager to be the best TIR in the company because by the nature of my former position, and also I'm 'an Enneagramate', I'm a challenger, I'm an opinionated, ...more
...Lisa Gill: Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head there about another point that I'm so often talking to former managers about, or also founders or owners or CEOs of businesses that become self-managing is, as you said, the extra work you have to do to create that psych...more
...ing that you touch on that. I'm curious then how else have you transitioned the leadership culture in Fitzii for you and for others who were formerly managers? How has that process been? Edwin Jansen: Well, I like to say that going Teal is like leadership development on steroids. And I, my former life, was ...more
...How has that process been? Edwin Jansen: Well, I like to say that going Teal is like leadership development on steroids. And I, my former life, was a manager for many years who was lucky enough to go through all of these different leadership development programmes and courses and reading business books and...more
...d to give that person feedback, to tell them what they really think, to ask the big, hairy questions. And so for me, and I think for anyone that's a manager and transitioning into being a Teal leader, or self-managing contributor, you have to be proactive in addressing your perceived power and authority: ...more
..., and some of it very difficult. But it's definitely a transformation that needs to happen or you could have all of the practices, but if your former managers haven't gone through that emotional, Heart stage and seen what triggers them, and what they're really afraid of, and why they want to wield power, yo...more
...d they have in common?" And what they found was that amongst all of these various HR practices, whether it's having a compensation system performance management, that the biggest difference or the biggest driver of a high-performing culture, was how effectively that culture did what they called 'Role Design'....more
...ny courses in business class about 'Role Design', what is that?" Well, what it is is what it sounds like. In an Orange or Green environment, it's the manager's job to design the roles: who does what, and then put people into those roles. And so we realise, obviously, it doesn't work that way in a self-mana...more
...y interesting. So our parent company, they're called the Ian Martin group; about 150 employees in this division that we're working with. So the other manager who was at Fitzii, when we went into self-management about a year and a half ago or so, she moved over into the parent company and has been a fantast...more
... going to pay themselves all this money. And it's actually the opposite is true: people pay themselves less than they would have asked for from their manager. And so the difficult thing is really this emotional heart transformation. Creating these new practices is fun and the first time that you launch a n...more

Ruth, Taryn and Philippa from Mayden, a health tech company that’s Made Without Managers

...h, it's great to be here with you, Lisa. We are a software company based in Bath. We do software, particularly around healthcare services and patient management systems, and we're really excited about data and innovation in this space, and so that's kind of where we occupy a lot of our space and energy. But w...more
...tion, there's always too much to do and not enough time to do it. So I was brought on to support that team to pick up projects, and to be a programme manager around things that the directors at the time wanted to get done, but really didn't have the time to do everything that was on their backlog. So, I wa...more
...a foundation to our self-managing approach, it was this idea that teams can be self-managing. Agile really gave us that way into stripping out middle management, stripping out any kind of command or control, really challenging where silos were potentially building up in the organisation. So 2013 was that sort...more
...directors really wanting to look differently and how we work. And it was that combination, I guess, in 2015–16, when we started to remove those line management structures, and invite staff to do it differently, but we also kind of had an organisation of two halves, which was kind of where some of the pain po...more
...ind of where some of the pain points came for us. Because you had your development teams who are already self-managing within a company that had line management, because they had the Scrum methodology to support their agile self-management. But you had the other half of the business who didn't have those proc...more
...the Scrum methodology to support their agile self-management. But you had the other half of the business who didn't have those processes. And so line management was removed for them, but they had no frameworks or scaffolding to fall back on to to know how to manage the work, we talked about managing the work,...more
...ngs about wanting to grow an organisation, but not necessarily in a traditional, or "this is just the way things are done, let's put layers of middle management in", it was "we believe there is another way, and we really want to make that happen and support the organisation to make that happen". So it has bee...more
...e's nothing soft about them, they're essential. They're really core to a great working environment, and particularly one where you haven't got a line manager to do those conversations for you. You're gonna have to speak to somebody about those opportunities, you're gonna have to deal with that team conflic...more
...ly want to ensure, and we make sure in that process as well, people are really clear that they're coming into an environment where we don't have line management, and what that might be like, and try and make sure our website does that as well as much as possible. Our recruitment team are really great at setti...more
...s of working, the areas that we've looked at over the last six years, whether it's been progression, decision making, role of the director, feedback, management arrangements within the organisation. And we've put some processes in place that are working, or have worked, but we have scaled, we have grown, wher...more

Margaret Heffernan on how to act our way out of the status quo trap

...r negative, you've always learned something. So, I think [there is] this reluctance to experiment - and in particular, on the part of a lot of senior managers - the tendency to require proof before the experiment. So what guarantee can you give me this experiment will work? Well, if you could give a guarant...more
... started recruiting nurses in those small self managed teams. What about organisations that are really wanting to move in this direction towards self management who are traditionally structured - and I know you have worked with and written about large global organisations who have done some innovative experim...more
... that? Because that's a different challenge, I imagine. Margaret Heffernan: Well it's quite interesting. I think people make a great deal about self management. And it's important. But when I think about my own career - so 13 years working at the BBC, which is a pretty traditional hierarchical organisation -...more
...have learned that there seem to be two paradigms of leadership, or of working together. One is like kind of parent-child paradigm kind of traditional management paradigm. And there is a sort of safety and security and comfort in being both the parent role or the child role, to a certain extent. And what you h...more
...quently. Like the example I just gave. Now, organisations don't like to boast about the fact that we had a dangerous doctor, or we had an abusive bar manager, or we had a really racist accountant - and we dealt with it. Because they don't actually like - once they have fixed the problem - to remember that...more
...d also that people need to see an action before they really believe it. A lot of organisations I'm working with can declare they're not going to have managers anymore. That means everyone can make decisions, and we're self managing now. And people are often surprised when no one steps in because it takes mo...more
...an just your word or permission. You have to see it to believe it, almost. Margaret Heffernan: Yes, I think that's right. But I also don't think self management solves all problems. I think there's a great tendency in business thinking, to pursue the hunt for the silver bullet, that one thing that changes eve...more
...mostly work in are enormously complex, and one single thing or one single idea doesn't change everything. But I think that the the advantage of self management is that it makes much clearer who's responsible for what. And the things that people decide to do for themselves, they are much more likely to take r...more
...nt, become better educated. And by their better education, start to understand how to make good choices. And this can come back to your theme of self management. This absolutely cannot be done by handing down edicts, by shaming people, or by bossing people around - it has got to be co-created, I believe, with...more
...it's really hard, and it's really slow. And it's pretty labor intensive. But it's got to be done. And if we can do it, we will learn a lot more about management and governance, than we knew when we so horribly failed to alert people to the crisis when there was still a lot more time than there is now. ...more

Buurtzorg and the power of self-managed teams of nurses
...favourite bit is when I asked them at the end, what advice they would give to people who are interested in working in a self-managing way, especially managers or CEOs. And the advice they give is just priceless. It's brilliant. So it's an absolute pleasure to share this conversation with you. Here's me talk...more
...u can do it better. They are from the working floor. Chila: Yeah. They know best, actually. Marian: Listen very well. Jolanda: Yeah, you don't need a manager. [Laughter] Chila: No, we really don't need a manager. Marian: We have had in the other organisation so many managers. Chila: They were only a pain i...more
...hila: Yeah. They know best, actually. Marian: Listen very well. Jolanda: Yeah, you don't need a manager. [Laughter] Chila: No, we really don't need a manager. Marian: We have had in the other organisation so many managers. Chila: They were only a pain in the ass. Sorry! Lisa Gill: No, I love it! [Laughing]...more
... Jolanda: Yeah, you don't need a manager. [Laughter] Chila: No, we really don't need a manager. Marian: We have had in the other organisation so many managers. Chila: They were only a pain in the ass. Sorry! Lisa Gill: No, I love it! [Laughing] It's great. Chila: You can go edit it. Jolanda: You get progres...more
...'s possible anywhere, in any company. If you let the professionals do their thing together, if you support that in the right way, you don't need any manager, anywhere. I really believe that. We can do it so everybody can do it! Jolanda: But it's also nice to have a coach. That's different to a manager. Th...more
...any manager, anywhere. I really believe that. We can do it so everybody can do it! Jolanda: But it's also nice to have a coach. That's different to a manager. They support you. They don't say you have to do this or that. But they support you. And that's what you need. No leadership. Marian: Never!...more
...Lisa Gill: It's interesting that distinction between a manager and a coach, how different that is... Chila: Yeah, the coach is equal to us. Not above us. She asks, "What do you want for the team?" And then she do...more
...n the website. It's interesting, the advice the ladies give about no leadership. I can't be sure if that's just a language thing. Maybe they meant no management, you know, the kind of stereotypical top-down behaviours that we associate with managers anyway. In any case, I think my interpretation, or maybe my ...more
... sure if that's just a language thing. Maybe they meant no management, you know, the kind of stereotypical top-down behaviours that we associate with managers anyway. In any case, I think my interpretation, or maybe my belief in general is that there is leadership in self-managing teams, but it's a chosen k...more

Aaron Dignan on being complexity conscious and people positive

...with a blank sheet of paper and created or modified some really incredible ways to work. And we are sort of called to do that - as leaders, founders, managers, team members. We're called to change the way we work. So that's the core concept of it. It obviously, gets into the nitty gritty and the 'how to' q...more
...re just pushing through to the next thing. Another part of this, of course, is that there's a big ego component to this and leaders and founders and managers have a lot of their identity wrapped up in being the hero or being the micromanager being the detail-oriented one or being the one that kind of sees ...more
...d. And so, you know, I worry about individual change moving in the direction of, 'let me change you in the way I think I need to change you', or let management hire me to do that, which is even worse. So there's a challenge there. What I do think is true is that if you change the environment, if you change t...more
..., was fluid and was actually co-owned from a very early stage. What I've learned is that you can share a commons, and have self organisation and self management, if the initial kind of intent and boundaries and simple rules are in place to protect and preserve the membership. If you don't have that stuff comp...more
...what it could and should be, rather than being part of something with an intent, and then going out and manifesting that intent together through self management. So that's one thing I've struggled with - when to be heavy-handed, and when not to. And what is the work of a founder or a creator, in making the i...more
...he organisation and in the organisation has meaning. So, there's that. There's also mentorship. I mean, in a system where you don't have formal line managers, how do people get counsel? How do they apprentice to different skills and different stories? How do they get feedback? So having a generous feedback...more
...use you're like, 'wow, they're seeing the company completely differently than we are'. And what does that tell us about exactly my point about change management, right? My least favourite thing in the world is we do the analysis and the diagnosis of the company through some big assessment over three months. ...more

Peter Koenig on source, money and consciousness
...ansformation, (if I can say that way, which is also a little bit outdated). But in a sense, the people who have had traditional roles of power, like managers, yes, there's some inner work for them to do in terms of being open to other perspectives and taking responsibility for their power. But there's also...more
...here. Peter Koenig: You express this very nicely, Lisa, very very beautifully. And, in fact, it doesn't matter really where you are, whether you're a manager or not a manager, you could bring it back to the levels to Frederick's, or spiral dynamics', levels. So the way I see it, up to a certain level of, (...more
...g: You express this very nicely, Lisa, very very beautifully. And, in fact, it doesn't matter really where you are, whether you're a manager or not a manager, you could bring it back to the levels to Frederick's, or spiral dynamics', levels. So the way I see it, up to a certain level of, (for want of a bet...more
...l your connection to your inner source to actually step out and take responsibility and actually start something in life. And that's whether you're a manager in a big organisation with so-called, lots of responsibility, or whether you just have another job right down the hierarchy, it really doesn't make a...more
... just have another job right down the hierarchy, it really doesn't make any difference as far as I'm concerned. We'd like to think that people in top management positions are more heavily, more highly developed, consciousness wise. I think this would need some research, I'm not sure that's actually necessaril...more
...ower or authority and responsibility in this particular body? And who are the people there? And very often, these people are not necessarily in these management positions, it needn't be the CEO or somebody who's got the so-called powerful positions. And that's what makes this source work very fascinating, bec...more

Beetroot’s founders on purpose, self-management, and shocking people with trust

...that's where the real challenge started. And we came to a point where we felt that: "Okay, this is probably where most organisations introduce middle manager...oh, that will be so nice. That will release a lot of pressure right now". But we actively decided not to do that and started to work even more on t...more
...allenges, and you kind of tended to go: "Okay, but what did we learn in business school? What do you do now? Well, probably you introduce some middle management, you go KPIs, and you go structures..", you go many different things. And I think we were even starting to do that a little bit, when, even though it...more
...f, you reach this really interesting crossroads of aha! Around about this time, the traditional business school approach would be to hire some middle managers and to introduce some control functions. So I wonder if you could tell us something about some of the decisions you've made, or some of the things y...more
...which we are constantly working with and partly together with Tuff Leadership also, is the feedback culture, in how to be able to when there is not a manager, (who gives you feedback, and you're successful if the manager is happy), so if it's not that, then you need better ability to give and take feedback...more
...uff Leadership also, is the feedback culture, in how to be able to when there is not a manager, (who gives you feedback, and you're successful if the manager is happy), so if it's not that, then you need better ability to give and take feedback on an individual, like peer to peer level because that feedbac...more

Alanna Irving on leadership, decisions and money in bossless organisations

...lly nice to have that. I was looking at Buffer - they have this open source document about how they promote and reward individual contributors versus managers. And it's been fascinating to me to watch their journey from fully on board with Teal and self management. And then they went wow - and went back a b...more
...ote and reward individual contributors versus managers. And it's been fascinating to me to watch their journey from fully on board with Teal and self management. And then they went wow - and went back a bit to more hierarchy, but more conscious hierarchy. But I was kind of disappointed with this document, bec...more
...t back a bit to more hierarchy, but more conscious hierarchy. But I was kind of disappointed with this document, because how they were describing the management capacities - like the skills and what it is to be a leader at this level. And this level was really quite oldschool. And it said a lot about supervis...more

Margaret Wheatley on leadership and Warriors for the Human Spirit

... was published in 1992, I was as optimistic as anyone could be that all you have to do to create positive change in the world, especially around self management was to present a solid theory backed up by lots and lots of evidence, organisational evidence. And my belief, which is quite naive, was that, people...more
...id this in the late 80s, to which he then put the question - and if this is true, that you'll get 35, minimum 35% increased productivity through self management, then the question he asked was, why isn't every organisation working on a self managed basis? Because everyone says, well, we want productivity, we ...more
...re. They're little moments, which, for some people now we think, Oh, that's a sign of hope. You know, we're going to convert all corporations to self management, because this works. So well. Yes, it works. So well. We've been doing that since the 70s. And I don't want to sound like an old person, but I am, an...more

Jorge Silva on horizontal structures and participatory culture at 10Pines

...ferent? Jorge Silva: Well, in order to have an idea of how we work, I feel proud of three practices that summarise all the culture and how we see the management of the company. The first one is that we make decisions in a collaborative way. And we use concerns - like in Sociocracy. The idea is that when you p...more
...r us. The second one is: in order for you to make good decisions or to take good decisions, you need information. So we have an aggressive open book management, where everyone knows all the numbers of the company, all the other financial numbers of the company - in terms of income, and how much money we pay ...more

Lisa Gill and Mark Eddleston celebrate 50 episodes of Leadermorphosis

...m a perspective of: how do we need to change relationally? How do we need to change the way we relate to each other? Particularly those of us who are managers or who have been in leadership positions, but also those of us who haven't - that there are these like shifts that need to happen in two directions. ...more
...ts, ways of being, I'm going to get lots more feedback from my colleagues in terms of how I'm showing up and the impact that I'm having. And if I'm a manager, having to let go of that power or influence or stepping in, and if I'm non-manager, or someone who has hasn't had power before then stepping up. And...more

Keith McCandless and Henri Lipmanowicz on acting your way into a new kind of organising with Liberating Structures

...ion of - we had never experienced anything like this. And this was, I remember going to some of those early workshops, where we had several layers of management, you know, six, seven layers, of hierarchy. And people who normally never almost hardly talk to each other, you know, and how the people at the lower...more
...ything and everything. I mean, the range of subjects from personal soft things, to business things - you know, whether it was marketing, organisation management problems, you name it. You know, anything. And there has never been one single occasion where the conversation didn't lead to something useful that t...more

Nand Kishore Chaudhary from Jaipur Rugs on love, collective consciousness and self-management

...having these results for themselves, what for you is really important? NK Chaudhary: I think the problem starts when we create our own identity, as a manager, as a CEO, as the owner of a company. Then we mix two things together, we mix our identity with our role. Our role is separate and our identity is se...more