Xavier Costa on lessons from self-managing organisations in Spain

Lisa: So, Xavi, welcome to the Leadermorphosis podcast. Thank you for being here.

Xavier: Thank you for inviting me. I’m very grateful about it because I wanted to share with you such a long conversation.

Lisa: Yes. Thank you. Yes. It feels like a luxury to very often when we’re having conversations, we’re, like, driving somewhere or we’re in between things and now we get this juicy luxury luxurious time together. Excited to have a conversation with you.

I also feel like there are so many places that we could start. So let’s just start somewhere and see where we get to. But I thought maybe we could start with you and I are both based in Barcelona and I’ve been thinking a lot about Spain and how it seems like in Spain this kind of new ways of working movement kind of growing. I know it’s still a small minority of companies here but especially compared to The UK where I started before and some other countries it feels like more and more companies are kind of turning to more self organizing ways of working.

And I thought we could talk about why do you think that is? What do you see happening in Spain with these companies and why do you think this movement is taking off here in a different way than other countries?

Xavier: That’s a good question, and I’ve been trying to research about that as well. I would say there are a few different reasons, but I wouldn’t talk about Spain in general. I would talk about regions, areas, yeah?

And those areas are in the boundaries of Spain, if you want to say it like that. So I’m talking about the Basque land, the Basque country. And here, you and me, we would agree that Koldo Saratxaga movement, when it started thirty years ago at Irizar. It was a beginning of this kind of movement. Then with the NER group, are already at K2K, they did transform about 120 companies, mostly in the Basque country.

Today we’ve got the Basque, the NER Group, which is very powerful and evolving, evolving further. And there is a lot of literature, there has been a lot of journeys, and this has spread a little bit the concept of Ner self management. That’s one thing. Another thing is cultural. So we would say that in the Basque country, as well in Catalonia, a little bit in Valencia and in Andalusia, there has been this cooperative movement since end of the eighteenth century and beginning of twentieth century.

So in these moments, have been a lot of movements of cooperative, rural ones, agricultural ones, that there is a sense of community in these areas. And they were creating cooperative, but they were creating as well savings fund. They were creating mutualities for health, etcetera, within small regions or small communities. And this was as well very strong until the civil war. But this culture is still there.

Then when we go to the 50s in the Basque Country, you got the Mondragon concept of cooperative. But this is only a reflex of the community culture that you can find in the Basque Country or in Catalonia. You’ve got very big cooperatives. We will talk about one that you know well, which is Som Energía, but there was La Fajeda. There is a big cooperative called Suara, which is for health systems, 5,000 people working there.

There is Abacus. Abacus is a cooperative of consumers. They are selling book stuff, they are selling paper work, etcetera, more than 200,000 partners, associates. So the movement is very strong. And there is as well the social economy movement, which is very strong. And if you go to Andalusia as well, that has created some cooperative movement, starting mainly on the agricultural side, but as well now being extended in some other businesses.

And this is in the boundaries of the system, in the boundaries of the system of the power. That’s why when we go to Madrid, you see a few examples, very few ones, because there is an establishment which is very strong. And in the boundaries, people needed to innovate, to do different things. Another thing that culturally and historically, in the Mediterranean Sea, there has been a lot of collaboration movements and interchange of cultures.

Talking about Catalonia, we had the Greeks, we had the Cartagino, we had the Romans. There was a big movement of the Catalans going to Greece, etc. So there has been always an interchange of cultures, and that’s making it rich. And what has happened here now is that with this movement and after the crisis of two thousand and eight, there has been a lot of young people that say the system that we have been growing, it’s not anymore valid.

And in Catalonia there is a very big entrepreneurship movement. And all of these young people, they have started as well to look for other working systems. And self management came here, so that’s why. These are some of the reasons, I would say. Of course, we cannot say in Spain there is a big movement, but maybe because we are communicating a lot about it as well, it looks like if it was so structural.

Lisa: Yeah, and I suppose because the NARE group companies and K2K and some others have organised, including yourself, many trips for people from around the world to go to Bilbao, for example, and go and visit some of the NER companies and kind of visit and meet people there and really see it in action. So I think they’ve done a good job of communicating their method. Also, think because, you know, I wrote a blog for the Corporate Rebels about K2K and a workshop that Dunia, our mutual friend, put on.

And they’re kind of 10 principles, you know, 10 essential things that if a company wants to adopt the NARE approach, have to do these 10 things. And if they won’t do at least those 10 things, then it’s not it’s not a NARE company. So there’s something about their approach that’s kind of seems that they’ve been able to replicate it, know, as you said, more than 120 times. So a combination of maybe that they have a clear method and people have come to visit.

So it’s sort of, yeah, the publicity has been quite good for it, guess, is what I’m Yes.

Xavier: And I would say as well that there has been a community created, maybe below the surface, as when we talk each other about the famous iceberg. It’s happening below, that there is a strong community and a lot of movements being created. I am now remembering two years ago, there has been the first teal congress in Spanish, in a small city called Cuenca.

There were more than 150 people there, coming from South America and from many places around Spain. So these kind of movements, these kind of things are spreading the word. It’s underground if you want, but they are emerging. You find them emerging everywhere. And for instance, within a couple of weeks we got the Festival of Consciousness in Barcelona. Last year there were about 5,000 to 6,000 people there.

This year it looks like they have sold many, many more tickets than a year ago. And there will be people talking about self management for the first time. There will be BIM, there will be Miguel Castrobi, myself, Boogie, etcetera. So the movement is there. And these small seats that came in the Basque country and as well in Catalonia because there were companies like Bacetti’s that you know, Fundaccio Maresma or Somanasia, that they never knew about K2K, but they were already on this teal concepto, David Marti with Barcelona Music Conservatory, which was created before Laloux edited his book.

So these kind of things are emerging and now we are talking about. And they are appearing in the media, still underground, but the job that Dunia has been doing through Crissos in Deiero in Seville and appearing on TV, on the first channels of the Spanish TV in programs. This is possible even we are as well going to do some speeches at IESE, which is a business school in Barcelona, at SADE, at the university.

So it’s appearing more and more and more. And that’s how the emerging movements are starting to show up. Still, the old system, the old era is very strong and maybe in the regenerative culture they are going into that direction, still very powerful. But there is something that it is emerging and creating these knots, having these kind of conversations, even with the rebel cells meeting, sharing, giving and receiving, these kind of things are making it much more powerful and spreadable, if you want to say it like that.

Lisa: Yeah. Maybe we can talk a bit about Krysos because you mentioned Indairo, which was the the first company that Krysos has bought. So Krysos, for people listening, is is this investment fund that Chavey and and Dunia, who we’ve mentioned, and Pim also from Corporate Rebels, and some others have founded to buy, raise money and buy and transform companies. And the first was this company in Sevilla, which is it’s an aerospace company, right?

And I think also that has been such a great case because in quite a short space of time, like in a year, eighteen months already, you had really great results and the employees had to vote. So these processes only go ahead if 80% or more of employees vote yes. So there’s a kind of co owned decision and then the process began taking away management hierarchy. CEO kind of stepped down as the CEO and he now works in the sales team.

Is that right? And a few other of the directors work in the sales team now I think as well. And within a short space of time, know, profit went up, salaries also went up. They were below the national average in Spain, weren’t they? And then they went up above. There were also more women in leadership roles. So all of the numbers that you would want to see in your company go up were all going up in a short space of time.

So it was a great case for us people in the movement to kind of point to and say, look, you know, this works and it’s not just soft and fluffy, know, it actually also it’s better for the people and it’s better for the company, you know, in the right context. And you’re sitting right now in the office of the second company that you’ve just bought in Barcelona. Right? Congratulations.

Xavier: Right. Thank you. Yeah. It’s a big challenge. Yes.

Lisa: Can you say say something about, yeah, where how where you are in in the Chrysos journey right now and and what’s what are you excited about? What are challenges that you’re facing?

Xavier: When we talk about Krisos, I remember a few weeks ago we had a meeting in Bilbao. Pim, Yavi, Durnia, Karim and myself, and we’re discussing about And when we talk about Krisos, we say it is a prototype.

It is a prototype to show to the society that another kind of economy is possible. And one of the things that is being taught about the transformation of the society is to transform the financial economy that we have, which is the one that is moving the most money, bring it to the real economy. And then transform, use that money, use that energy to transform companies into a force of good. So here, one of the things that we do is socially, people get better jobs, better paid jobs, but as well we work on their own growth as people, growing into the wholeness, if you want, because we say there is no transformation if you don’t do individual transformation.

And this is a journey. We invest a lot in this individual transformation as well. And so these people, apart from being paid higher, it’s okay, but this would be material if you want. It’s not only that, but they are being transformed. And all of the beliefs that they had, that they were not sufficient, that maybe they were women in the low class, and they couldn’t grow, etcetera, today it’s blowing. Those people, they are now governing or leading a company with 50 people.

And we wanted to prove that, and as well for the planet, so that we can move in to a non extractive economy, which is another challenge that we have to do. So Chrysost is very appetizing, if you want to say it, and we try to keep it as a prototype. Of course, we can help other countries to develop the same country, the same concept, sorry, but we want to prove that it works, because there is as well a big responsibility.

There are some people that are believing that we can do it and that will work, so we have as well the responsibility to make it possible and to show it and make the adjustments. One of the critical points as well of it would be after six, seven, eight, ten years, what the exit is. And here we are thinking always in two directions: one, to become a cooperative if the workers want, and the other one, to go to a steward ownership model, to make sure that this will never go back.

But it’s still using the money for good somehow. So now we are in the company that we bought just one month ago. So we are just starting to know the business, to know we did a diagnosis. So how we want to do the transformation. It’s very different than in DIRO. Still, it’s very industrial. But it is a company which is technologically underdeveloped. So we will need to make a lot of investment in time, in money and in the people development.

But it’s nice, it’s nice because the growth that here we will have in terms of people’s awareness, if you want to say it like that, will be impressive. That doesn’t mean that will be easy, but we will put all the efforts on that. And then the next one, we are starting to look in Bilbao to buy a third one, which will be led by Javi. And this will be the three that we said at the beginning, we will buy three and then we will go further.

Always when we go into one of those transformations, there are two people of us. So at Indiero, there was Dunia leading and being there, and myself going there once a week at the beginning and then once every two weeks. And now I’m going in there once every three months, something like that. Here at Louis Breast, there is I am leading the company, the transformation as well, and Javi is coming every two weeks as well.

So we try not to be alone. And at the same time, we bring some of our colleagues, in this case from Full Circle, to help in the transformation, in the facilitation of the teams, in the training, and as well in the healing part, because wherever we go, we need to heal a lot of things that has happened in the company in the past. And they are still in memories and they are patrons that are driving hidden patrons that are driving the behavior of the people and need to be healed.

So So it’s the Yeah.

Lisa: I love that you described that as like a healing process. Because I experienced that too, that many people have been harmed by top down hierarchy culture. They’ve had no voice or very little voice for so long and they’ve gotten used to being passive or if you’re a manager you’ve gotten used to making decisions all the time, solving things, being responsible all the time. How do you and your colleagues at Full Circle, how do you see yourself as supporting people in that healing process?

How do you do that?

Xavier: So as you were saying, know many, many, many people that have been working for years in a company just for the salary, And then accepting whatever was coming and doing it, but inside of themselves that was harmful somehow. This is one. The other one is many managers that have been acting as they understood they should act, but not being themselves. And this is as well painful. And we find both things, but we find a lot of people that say, Hey, I’ve been fighting a lot to get this position and now you are coming and taking it out.

So there is a process, there is a, if you want, a healing process. Sometimes could be more coaching, but in many, many, many cases is therapy. If you want, it’s facilitating therapy with systemic facilitation or gestalt tools. What’s going on behind below the table or below the iceberg, as you say. About your mindset? We work on the mindset and then everything appears and is being developed. But it takes time.

And it takes time and energy that we have to put on it. Sometimes you feel, Okay, now it’s solved. And no, it is not solved. Well, it’s a work and we need to bring people that are therapists or good in coaching, going deeper under the ‘you’ in order to seal. We work as well a lot, a lot, a lot in team healing, if you want to say it like that, and having difficult conversations, or taking the musket that you have behind of you and putting it on the table.

So that’s one of the things. As well doing tooth leadership trainings in order to have this kind of difficult conversations, adult adult, because we’ve been leading or being lead, like parent child parody. And this takes time. This is the most difficult part of it. The easiest part is to change the structure, to set up KPIs, to be transparent if you want, to trust in people, but then I can trust, but if people are not trained to be trusted or to trust in the others or to trust in yours, it’s difficult.

So then there is this kind of work that needs to be done, yes or yes. You remember that in several conversations we had the small or the simple idea that we have been living under the fear, fear, being afraid of losing my job, being afraid of not being sufficient fear, in fact. And we take slowly all this armor that we had to become ourselves in our essence, which is love. So when people are asking me, My children, my children, they are not children anymore, 25, 26, not children.

But they will always be my children, I’m sorry for them. So when they ask me, What do you do? At the end I say, Bring love to the companies. That’s all. Because it’s opening completely. But it’s a very nice part of our work, but it needs energy and it needs to be aware of it.

Lisa: Yeah, I have so many memories of people listening. If you’ve ever been to a workshop with Xavi, he very often comes with this amazing toolbox. He has this case full of post it notes and pens of different colors and card and things and he also brings with him these words he has the word fear written and he’ll put it down in the middle of the circle And then you have one with the word love written on it and you you talk about, you know, you you take away fear and you replace it with love. Simple. But it’s so it’s so it’s so true and it’s so beautiful.

It makes me think of, one of my colleagues in Tuff Carl Lyric. He often says that everyone is scared. We human beings are going around all the time in our lives feeling scared. And there are like two types of people, the people who know they’re scared and the people who don’t know they’re scared. Because a lot of people when when you talk about like fear and stuff they’re like, well, I’m not scared of things.

But all of us like in the traditional paradigm we’re always doing this second job of looking good and it takes a lot of courage to to dare to kind of drop the mask, right? And to be something else and to have these conversations. I also really like that when I first learned about the kind of NARE approach, the K2K, that K2K has sort of implemented in many organisations, part of that approach is the structure of having this, the pilotage, like the steering team and the compromiso, the commitment team, made up of representatives from different teams that kind of replace like a central management team or an operational team.

So they’re making decisions day to day and trained very often in things like consent decision making for example. And I remember asking a question about what about the messy human stuff? How do you deal with conflict? How do you give each other feedback? And at the time I understood that that was a bit of a challenge and I think continues to be a challenge. So in the Khrysos approach, you’ve added this third team.

So you have this kind of triangle, which you call the caring team. Right? And that is again a team of representatives. And the representatives, they’re they’re also elected in a I forgot the word. What’s it called? Where people elect you. Right? You don’t you don’t nominate yourself. People nominate you. Is that right?

Xavier: Well, do it sociocratically. And so people in the caring team are the ones who help to build things like a feedback culture or they help when there are conflicts or they help with the personal development side of things to support the kind of human development part.

Those are the people who very often my colleagues in TAF have been training for example and helping them with some of the conversations for that. But that’s sort of yeah I like that you have like a tripod now instead of the kind of two teams and that human piece to me feels so important in the process? What we were saying that we’ve been for the last two, three centuries operating rationally. And there was if you look at this triangle, you had the Pilotage steering forum, which was more strategic, rational, etc.

And then you had the commitment, which was doing. Yeah, the hell is that? Yes, hence. But there was not feeling, there was not the hurt, there was not people caring, there was not the intuitive part. Or, as I say, there was not the balance between yin yang, masculine energy and feminine energy, because the feminine energy was out. You were not allowed to take out the mask of yourself and say, Today I’m not feeling well.

Or as my colleague Marina says, Well, this week I have the period, so forgive me. So you were not allowed show yourself as a person, or to cry even. So when we put this side, we become much more human as organisations. And then we can have these kind of conversations that were limiting us, but we were afraid to talk about. And then there is a group of people that are taking care of the others, and they are the ambassadors, they are the representatives, etc.

And usually it’s a very powerful team, very powerful team, because it progresses. The people who are becoming representative in these teams, usually they are those ones that are more sensitive and they want to do it. And all of a sudden they do all the trainings and they start taking the leadership in their own teams when there is a conflict, when there is a hidden conversation, etcetera. It’s really, really very powerful.

So that was something that I did realize at Schomannergia, my time at Schomannergia. I’ve been two years leading Schomannergia. And that was what they were calling reproductive team. There was the productive forum or committee and the reproductive. That, as they used to be a green cooperative, green in the level, So this was very powerful. And then a lot of things were starting, were beginning there and were happening in this team.

That was for me a real discovery. And when we were putting all in a triangle, then it was close. Must say that I feel very lucky, I feel very fortunate. But because since I left my company, Lecwell, at the time where it was not self management as it is today understood, but it was very intuitive and using design tools or design thinking to manage the company, etc. So the intuition part was there. But I was still playing without knowing what was going on.

And then when I left and I started to work on the cultural transformations and I met K2K and I started to meet companies that were in the transformation, it helped my own transformation. So I, fiftyfifty, I’m now 50, I think, but at 50 I started to be a child again and learn again all the time and doing my own internal transformation as well. So taking still, I had these kind of liars that were protecting me.

And it was really something that happened to me, and I’m lucky about it because I am a new person, if you want to say it like that. And having the opportunity to meet people like you, like people from SolarGear, all the connections that we have created now, it’s something that helps each other to develop and go further as personas individuals.

Lisa: Yeah, I was going to ask you about what has your personal transformation journey been in all of this, because you’ve had a career of running companies, right? And now you founded Full Circle, what was it now, a couple of years ago? Still quite young, right? Has been your transformation? You know, if I had met you twenty, thirty years ago, what would be different?

Xavier: Thirty years ago, I was still very young. No, I would say that so I am trying to remember and to build it a little bit. So I was born in a burgessi, small or medium class family, in a small village in Catalonia, with a private business, very small one, but owned by my father, and in a family where so I’m a privilege.

I am a man, I am a European. There has always been a dish on the table. So I went to school, to the university, etc. Public universities, but in any case. And at the same time, when I was born, I had a twin brother. So I was born the smallest one, and the weaker. And at sports I wasn’t good. We were playing basketball and I was the one sitting down and waiting for the end of the game if I could start to play.

But that has developed other abilities of myself: the capacity to go further, to innovate, to look for creative ways. And without knowing it, I’ve been leading all of my time, because I was leading at the school, I was the students, how do you call it, delegate, whatever, I don’t know how do you call it, representative, almost in every class. And at the university, I was as well at the faculty, and I was at the So these kind of things that had been And connecting, connecting people, connecting differently.

So that was something intuitively that was happening to me. Maybe having to look for other ways to survive, which is somehow positive. On another side, it was something that was limiting me. Because I was still having my small no, it’s not a moosehead, but martyr I don’t know how you call martyr, the small, chubby martyr who’s not playing properly basketball and who’s not strong enough to fight because I wasn’t.

So this one was still here. So after that, well, I created my own company when I was 25 years old, which I sold five years later to a Dutch company. And I’ve been developing myself as a manager, leader, etcetera. Because I’ve never been somebody who is going into the details. And in my team at Full Circle, say always, Csabi, calm down. We are in the air. That’s true. But that was as well being very creative.

This is my creator side, if you want to say it. I’ve been always creating networks, creating associations, creating businesses and letting them go. Have never been attached to something so strongly that it had to be mine. No, no. It is created, it is for the world. When I bought Liqui, I always say bought, but then I have to clarify, I put this part of the price and private equity put that part. But in any case, it was my project.

And it was really related to a purpose of myself, because I said I need to find something to allow people to eat better in an easier way. I was around 35, we had three children, my wife and I, we were working and traveling both, and it was very easy to eat badly and difficult. So I said, I need to create something to make it easier for the world. And I found liquid, which they were producing bath mats or ice cube trays in silicone, etc.

And I found there a way to say, Oh, here we could develop a lot of things that can go in the oven or in the microwave, etc, to make it easier. And we started to develop not the product or not only the product, because everything was coming from a purpose. And it was really connected to the hurt of the necessity. There was an empathy. So we did develop, if you want to say it, like a service, because there were hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of culinary courses in shops everywhere in the world, a few dozens of books, how to cook, and we were selling more than 100,000 copies of each book we were launching, translated in Japanese, in French, in German, in English, of course, in Swedish.

In any case, there was a kind of movement that was working. All that has been developed through intuition, through listening to the people or connecting to the people, because we were using, as you say now that we are with our box, magic box of colours. So we were creating on the floor too, and cutting from magazines and putting there. So it was a systemic facilitation somehow. And for me that was a really nice experience.

And here I have developed a little bit more my leadership capacity, if you want to say it. Numbers for me are very easy. It’s something that came to me easily. But I needed to develop a little bit more this security about leading and leading big teams, 200, two fifty people, etcetera. Still there was something which was the small martyr chubby, which was that I had partners who were private equity. And at the beginning, when there was the first fund, they were confident, trusting me, perfect.

When there was another fund came, it was a bit of focus, a bit that focus. And I was saying, no, people people first. Don’t worry, we go to this purpose, it’s going to be well. At that moment, there was a choke between me and themselves. And the martyr was saying, Okay, they are the boss, like this, if you want to say it, macho management from the right side, that boss commanded me somehow. And I had to heal this side too.

So when I said, No, this is not the way, and they said, Okay, you are out, I started my healing. At that moment, I said, Okay, I understand now, and I have to connect to my real power and say, Okay, I am a good boy if you want. I want to be a good person and empathic, etc. But there are things that I need to fix, and there are barriers or limits, as we say, that need to be fixed. I have to defend the team, I have to defend as the wolf does.

I have to defend intuitively, but I have to defend the group. And that was a good lesson for me. And from there, then I’ve still been working on myself a lot and connecting to my essence. And at the end, when I was connected to my essence, then I did discover what was it. And that’s, well, to bring light to the world and to work, to be as a how do you call it? A light tower or light A lighthouse. Yes, a lighthouse.

And this is what the essence is telling about me. Don’t be afraid, you are here. When you are afraid, you are not illuminating. And when you are impresent, which is words that we are using now a lot, when you are not present, you are not fulfilling your duty. It’s not a duty, but it is goal. This has been a little bit my trip, but it’s never ending because we are always evolving and learning, as I said to you.

That’s why I’m feeling so fortunate to be in this journey together with all of these people. I was talking about the red level. Some years ago, two or three years ago, did the spiral dynamics test. And it appears that, okay, till it’s my highest one, and then the green, and then the And when it comes to the red, my rejections, almost all of them, are in the red. So I had to work on these rejections, because they were someone that I had to bring.

You’ve got this power, which is not force, but you’ve got this power, and you need to defend the team, the group, and take action, determination, these kinds of things.

Lisa: Thank you for sharing that. You’re someone who whenever I’m in a room with you, I see that you are so open in sharing your journey as well. And I think that’s makes it safe for other people to to kind of also be open and share, you know, their fears or their pitfalls. So I think you are very generous in how you do that. I’m very grateful that you do that.

Xavier: Well, maybe it’s because I’m not afraid at all to explain it. Yeah, which is nice. And that’s why you say, when I go to Sevilla, they say, Xavi brings love always. It’s being connected really to our essence, that’s it. Yes.

Lisa: And at the same time, I really relate to what you’re saying about finding a way the way I see it also is to to reintegrate or reclaim the parts of you that are red, you know, the parts of you that are maybe like power or being direct or, you know, that that those are important parts and needed in collaboration also.

If we reject those parts, then that can become problematic. And I also relate to that. I I remember doing one of those spiral dynamics tests a few years ago and I thought the point was to, you know, to get all teal and, like, if you’ve got anything else, was bad. Of course, the learning is that all of those those ways of being, those levels of consciousness have their place and are important. If I have no red, that means that I won’t stand up for my needs or I won’t defend other people or I won’t have be clear in in things.

And so that so it’s to sort of embrace all of the different pieces. Right? And that’s the kind of journey because all of us have different versions of pieces that we’ve pushed away or been told are bad or wrong. And there’s something very liberating when you start to bring those pieces back into yourself. It feels very uncomfortable at first, but very liberating, I think.

Xavier: I remember I’ve been working, as we said a few minutes ago, I’ve been working with some cooperatives, a couple of them, green. And they were rejecting the orange side. But then we had to talk about the numbers, we had to talk about the figures, the P and L, the result at the end. No, we are non profit, so then our budget has to be zero. No, because next year we cannot replace the computer, or we cannot invest in more things. So we can find, in many cases, and it happened to me and to you, as you say now, to be able to recognise that we need to have the good part of every consciousness level that has allowed us to evolve somehow.

And it’s nice that you brought it.

Lisa: I’d love to hear a little bit about, because you’re working with a number of companies here in Catalonia with your colleagues at Full Circle to kind of accompany them on their journeys. And I know some of them are more radical perhaps direction that they’re going than others. But what are some, I wonder if you could share like a couple of examples of companies that you’re working with that are inspiring to you or something that, you know, a story or an example of a step along the journey that you think might be interesting for listeners, just to give them a bit of a picture?

Xavier: It’s coming to my mind. One thing that happens when we go to transform a company, not taking the leadership of the company, but going together with the former CEO, whatever you want to call, is that we can start the journey, but always the limit will be the leader. So we can, no, no, change them, change them! No, no, no. The first one to be changed is you, because the three fingers are going to be Yes, and you point three fingers at the same Yes, exactly.

Like that way. And here we have one example now that we’ve been dead for two years already, but the evolution is happening below. At the same time, we are working really hard, hard with the leader, accompanying her into another level. Because this space is the space that allows all the other people of the company to grow. If she would stay here, there is no growth at all. Then what this change or transformation means?

It means to change from again, I’m sorry but from a paradigm of scarcity, of fear, or we will maybe have problems and then so being afraid, to gain confidence, to start listening in a different way. First of all could be empathy, but then a fourth level of listening which is more presenting as Otto Sharma or whatever he was saying. It’s holding the context and letting the things happen without having to be too controlling what’s going on.

Because when you are in this level of consciousness, you don’t need to be all the time controlling, speaking, cutting. No, things happen. And this is hard work. And always, in any transformation I’ve been, if this work hasn’t been done, the transformation fails. At a certain moment, you raise the level of the leader. So this is something that we need to work. And what I’m feeling now in this company is that, okay, we did it, and now it’s happening much, much faster.

That’s one thing. Another learning which is different, two others. One is former managers. In any company we go, there are former managers. And these people, they need to be treated in a special way. They need as well to be cared and they need to have a role, because they have been leading the company and all of a sudden, you say, your medals are not valid anymore. But you as a person are important into that company and you can bring all of your knowledge, you can bring your leadership.

You always say that don’t get confused, Self management doesn’t mean no leadership. And it happens many, depending on what it’s happening. So we need to care about these people and to teach them. I don’t like the word ‘teacher’ because I’m not a professor. But they need to learn how to lead from another point of view, in another way. Now it’s coming to my mind, I’m sorry, this is not an advertisement, but I want to say that we have created together with Boogie Garcia, leadership training called metamorphosis, with the word amor in the middle.

And it goes about this: it goes about how do we need to lead in the future that’s coming. And it begins with myself, who I am, and then who I lead my life, and then who I lead together one to one. But it is all not looking outside, but looking inside of ourselves. And then these people, all of a sudden, they grow. And then they were managers, they were not bad people, they were not The system that we had told them that they needed to manage or to lead in a way that today it’s not anymore required to.

That’s the second. And the third, where we got the biggest problems: salary balance. And you know it from the rebel cells that it comes always, everywhere. In our cases, the problems come from those people that had this salary and they have been evaluated at this level. These people, this gap is creating pain in their ego, So you mean, just to clarify, so you mean people, so they have a self managed salary process where I, for example, might say, I think I should be paid this much because I’ve done this and this.

Then maybe my peers say: No, we think Lisa should be paid lower than that. And you’re saying that that gap creates a pain, creates a challenge.

Xavier: Yes. But not only because you want no, no, today, when we are starting the transformation, today you are being paid like that. Then we do the first evaluation. Then they tell: no, no, you say, no, no, I’m valid like this. Yes, but the system that we all voted, because we all voted it, says that you are here.

So here, there is, again, a difficult conversation. And we take the opportunity to have this conversation and see together with that person to explore what should be the way to rise that level. In many cases, it has nothing to do with your knowledge. It has nothing to do with your experience. It has to do how you behave, who you are, how you treat your teammates, etc. So it’s fantastic because it is an opportunity to grow as well for this person.

Lisa: Yeah. I find also in so many companies, when you kind of look at all of the salaries, realize that many people have a salary that was decided for for sort of quite random reasons. Like, you know, you you were good at negotiating or you had a good good relationship with the I don’t know, the CEO who who hired you or or the market rate, you know, in other companies, it would pay this much. But I know one company where there was a guy who worked in the I think he worked in the sales and marketing department.

And after a couple of years of working in a sort of teal self managed way, the teams were saying, we kind of feel like your salary is much higher than the other salaries and we’re not really sure that that’s fair. And he said well that’s the market rate for a kind of sales and marketing manager and they were like yeah but maybe we don’t agree with that, maybe it shouldn’t be. Do you really add that much more value than someone in this role or that role in our company?

Is that what we value? And when they had a discussion about it he realised yeah actually when you put it like that it’s not fair. And he kinda was willing to bring his salary down because because they recognized that the system valued, you know, one thing and said this is how much you’re worth, but they wanted to value something else internally.

Xavier: Yes. And if we come from the formal economy, you are what you’re being paid or your value, or your thing that you value, was what you are being paid. And in our new conception, if you want to say it like that, It’s not like this. And there are other things that are related to the values, etc, which are important. I like some of the companies that I’ve known. One comparative here in Catalonia and another company in the Basque country, in Kimoa. They have only five levels, four or five levels, very easily described. And you know the way. And that’s all.

That’s all. You accept it, or you don’t play the game. Then it’s very easy, once you are in it and you know it, It’s very easy to understand. And that’s how we play. Of course, then we have the profit sharing. And then the profit sharing helps to have good salaries. But we got one common goal, important as well in any self managed company, that we all have this common goal and we go all towards that direction, because then we can share it.

Again, when we are talking about teal or let’s go more in the teal direction, We talk about cooperation. We talk about collaboration. We don’t talk about competing. Competing is over. So then if we’ve got a common goal and we are not competing, we are collaborating, we are learning how to do this, because we had the different departments with their own goals. It’s nice to have this common goal. Saying that, there is something else that was coming into my mind.

When we are in a TEAL system, or in the self management, if you want to say, so we, in our countries, European countries, US, etc, culture, we have been a lot individual. And the most important is you as an individual, and your career, etc. There are other cultures that maybe in Japan, they were more the community. So what we are finding is that there is a balance, a balance fiftyfifty. Not a balance like that, but a balance like this, That there is a game between you and me.

There is a spiraling. You and the community. And this is what we have to play. And we have to be able to play about that. It’s important that we care about ourselves because we are members of the community, but at the same time we care about the community because it’s the community where I am living. And a company for me, it’s again a community too.

Lisa: Yeah, I love that. I also think about I mean, feel very lucky to live in Barcelona. I didn’t know this when I moved here nearly ten years ago. But there are a number of self managing companies here and it’s not very far to fly Bilbao for example. But there are so many inspiring companies here and we have a really lovely community here. And one of the ones that I was inspired by recently, when we had some Japanese friends visiting and we went to Recaredo, the wine company, which is such an interesting example because they’re a biodynamic wine company.

They have spent a number of years looking at every detail of like you know the soil and the plants that we grow by the vines and the amount of water and light they get. They even have a man who comes and sings and plays music to the plants you know to help them grow and then they had this beautiful realization. What about if we thought about our people in the same way and created the conditions for them to grow, and thrive even more?

And so they’ve been exploring for the last, what, two years is it now? Kind of

Xavier: Oh, for years. For years. For years. Forgive me.

Lisa: And it was really fun. We got to meet you and I and and some friends, some of their colleagues there who were talking about how they had been. There was someone who was working in the cellar and then someone who was working in sales. And the person who was working in sales was often like dealing with, you know, fancy customers in suits and flying to Japan and doing things like that.

And the people in the cellar would look at the salespeople taking their coffee breaks or whatever and be jealous of them. Oh, they get to take a coffee break. I would love to be able to do that. And the salespeople were looking at the people in the cellars and saying like, oh, they finish at 5 and they just go home. Whereas I’ve got to have a call at this time because a customer is in that time zone or I’ve got to get on an eight hour flight or whatever.

And when they started talking to each other, the sort of silos broke down and they realized, oh, we’re all working towards the same thing and it’s not me versus you or sales versus people in the seller. But, and they also then started realizing, oh, so you’re trying to launch a new product or you’re trying to improve the efficiency. Well, we could help with that also in the cellar. There’s things we can do to, you know, they started collaborating in a totally different way.

And I just thought that was such a lovely example of, of kind of almost applying the regenerative living system of a wine company to humans, and how they go hand in hand in a really nice way.

Xavier: And I remember when we made the diagnosis, they were always talking about the ones from down and the ones from up. The ones from the office and the ones working under the And now, when you are discussing with them, they always talk about: no, it’s all about having conversations, learning how to talk and having conversations.

And that’s all. And they feel much happier when you go. Now you feel the happiness that there is there. Even they are having a lot of difficulties now, because this year it rained, but for the past three years they were maybe collecting half of what they needed, so that’s not easy. But still, Okay, they managed, we will do that, we will do this, etc. And again, as they are as well, people working the earth and agricultural etc, they are very much linked to the community and to the earth.

So then they are ready to say, Okay, this year we don’t increase salaries, because we cannot. And they accept it. It’s kind of what we are living very humble but honored. In fact, I don’t know if you know that, but they have the first bottle of sparkling wine, 100 points Parker. So that’s evaluation. Parker evaluation is like Michelin star. So the first one that has 100 points is from Recreiro. So they went, Oh!

Even the evaluators bring us this kind of price, if you want to say it like that. Proud moment.

Lisa: Well, we should probably start wrapping up, although I feel like I could talk to you for so many more hours. But I’m lucky that I get to see you quite often nowadays. So I wonder what in everything that you’ve been learning and it’s an ongoing journey, but what would you like to share with listeners? Know people listening to this podcast are very often in their own organisations or leading their own organisations and they’re exploring many of these ideas.

Do you have some advice or words of wisdom you would like to share with them?

Xavier: It’s only one. Inside. Go inside. After that, the rest will happen, whatever needs. But what I would recommend, and I do it to anybody who’s asking me about: Can we have a coffee? Yes. And then there is always a question like this, I say: Insight. Because there is something that opens, and once you are connected with your sense, to yourself properly, everything goes much easier.

For you, for your family, for your environment and for the society. For me, only one recommendation would be that one.

Lisa: Very wise. Is there anything else that you would like to say that you would be sad if like, oh no, I wanted to say that?

Xavier: Ah, yes. I want to say that I am very lucky to meet people like you in that world, because the job you are doing, so we are trying to communicate, the job you are doing is incredible. So really, you say I’m lucky to be in Barcelona, I say we are lucky that you are in Barcelona.

Lisa: Thank you. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, for having this conversation. And I really recommend that listeners follow you on LinkedIn and connect with you. You have so much to share and you’re just one of the most generous warm people I know. You say you’re connector so if you’ve been inspired by this and you want to learn more then do reach out to Xavi.

So thank you so much.

Xavier: Thank you. It was a pleasure. And see you soon.

Lisa: Yes indeed. I will.