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Episode Transcript
Lisa: Well thank you so much for coming on the Leadermorphosis podcast Anna and David. I’m really looking forward to talking to you about this wonderful film that you’ve made.
Anna: Thank you.
David: Thanks for having us.
Lisa: So maybe, uh, for the benefit of the listeners who haven’t seen it, could you share a little bit about La Fageda and why it’s a unique organization and how you came to make this film in the first place?
Anna: La Fageda is a yogurt making factory in Girona, in a really beautiful rural area of Catalonia, and I spend all my summers there because I’m half Catalan so I always knew about it. And what’s unique about this yogurt making factory is that all the workers suffer from different mental illnesses.
David: Yes, and it started as a social enterprise by this amazing psychologist. It’s called Cristóbal Colón. Basically, he was working in an asylum which at those times, early 80s, they were in a pretty bad state and they hadn’t had the reforms that the rest of Europe and the states had had because of Franco, what have you. So when they started to kind of introduce some of these new ideas into the system, his idea was “I want to take 10 of the patients out and let’s start a business” and so that’s what they did. And initially they started off doing gardening and odd jobs, and they grew and they changed. And because Cristóbal—we’ll get onto this—is such an amazing entrepreneur, he kind of—the, the, all the avenues they tried out led to this one thing happening which was the dairy farm and then the yogurt brand, and then it’s become the much-loved presence of Catalonian life that you see in the supermarkets today.
So, and obviously, but the idea with it is that what they’re doing is actually providing jobs, meaning and purpose for the workers rather than making yogurt. So it could be anything that they do. The whole point is to move the vote for the workers.
Anna: I think what’s unique is that it isn’t sort of something for people who are suffering from mental illnesses, sort of part-time. I think what’s amazing is that it’s a commercial success. So they’re not known for their slaves. So it’s kind of this unique combination that Christopher Colón, which is Christopher Columbus by the way in English because his parents thought that’s a good name—well, they’re called Columbus and I thought let’s call him Christopher. That’s his first name. It’s that—yeah, it’s a commercial success. So that’s what’s unique. He’s not both an entrepreneur and a psychologist, this incredible combination which is what makes La Fageda unique.
Lisa: Yeah, it is an incredible combination. And I’m curious as well like what—what to you was so important about making this film? Like what did you want to say, what did you want to share in particular with the world in making this film?
Anna: Well, uh, for me I’d always sort of known about this place, having spent my summers near it. I suppose it was sort of to have a great understanding about mental illness and to normalize it and what people go through. And, um, and yeah, each time I want to make sort of films that have a social message or they’ve got some kind of purpose to them. So I think, you know, you get to know the characters of people that work there, you just realize that they’re like you and me, that you know, there’s no difference. They’ve just had a little bit less support here and there. And so I think the social message was very important to me.
David: And I mean for me it was—it’s a really good story. It’s a really good story, you know. And it’s, uh, it, it’s one of those projects that has a—because this started off as a personal thing. Anna wanted to make this film for years, and when she told me about La Fageda and their story and Christopher, and eventually I went there and saw it myself, it was like, well, this is a no-brainer. If you’re going to do a personal project which involves a lot of investment, time and love and disappointment and highs and lows, um, find the right story to do that with because it’ll destroy you otherwise if you don’t—if you don’t believe in it. And so this, this, this was just all those stars aligning and everything coming good to me that, um, that yeah, we could do it for the long haul and do it in such a way that, uh, we could film it intimately, we could, we could, we could make this happen. And as you would do a podcast, through the crew of me and Anna that’s all—sound, camera, any, any way we can get that rolling, uh, for a period of days. We would just go, we would stay, and we would just be there.
And, uh, and, and in a way that you could—if it was if there were other people involved or if there was a commercial thing that you were just purely motivated by, it’s a gig, you know. So yeah, that’s…
Anna: Yeah, I suppose we were embedded in the future because we did it over various years actually, every time we had a break between sort of paid gigs. And yeah, we became part of their family and all the workers are like—they’re like our friends. They all knew us, you know, the sort of quirky half English half—that keep on coming. And I think, yeah, what’s, what’s radical and what’s unique about this place is that, you know, those who have mental illnesses, we’re going to shut them out of society—we should actually integrate them. The more you integrate them, that’s probably the best cure, isn’t it? And, um, so yeah, I’m always into sort of radical or different ways of doing things.
And also it’s not just mental illness, it’s all about doing better business and giving people meaning so that they have intrinsic meaning in their work, you know. Their work—it’s not just about pleasing shareholders. And we all want to work with meaning, we all want to go above and beyond pleasing shareholders. That I think is really cool, so as filmmakers, that was, that was what this job was for us, it was broken meaning. So that’s why we made it.
Lisa: Yeah, very much what drew me to, to inviting you onto the podcast because I, I saw a little taster of the film must have been, I don’t know, four, four years ago or something in London, um, and, and it was not—it wasn’t finished then, but I remember being so struck by, uh, you know, for me my interest is, is the future of work and making work more human, making it more purposeful and really involving people and sort of, you know, treating people with dignity really.
Like I think we infantilize people in organizations generally, and I think we infantilize people with mental illnesses as well. So it’s really beautiful, I think, in the film to see people treated with dignity and respect and, and doing work and, and finding purpose and meaning in it and sort of involving them and talking with them both about their work and also, you know, with their therapists and sort of, you know, working through how, how they can live really and supporting them in, in finding autonomy I guess you could say.
Anna: 360 view, I think that’s what they say. So it’s, you know, their work, where they’re going to live, they’re, what they, you know, do in their spare time. They look at individual from all perspectives, um, and, and yeah, so you know, one worker might have a crisis in the afternoon, therefore they can’t work then. They have to go and look at—meet with a therapist and be looked after by them. But still the business keeps on going. So they managed to do—and you know, maybe in a more embedded commerce, normal business, you won’t have someone having a breakdown, but you might have someone that’s got to rush off to pick up kids because the childminder’s not there and things. So there’s flexibility and trust in your worker as well, you know, as opposed to presenteeism, isn’t it, where you just—you should be there.
Lisa: Hmm, well that’s what we’re finding this year. It’s really thrown into stark relief the idea of being present in a place and that being the, the indicator of how much work you’re doing with the value of your work, you know, that, that’s, that’s going to happen now, um, which has thrown up issues and problems, uh, lessons to be learned going forward as well. But it’s hard to imagine going back for a lot of these organizations.
Anna: So how things work—I mean, the other aspect also about work, which is interesting, is that we all venerate to society the alpha worker, the people that are most brilliant, and actually we need everything in society. And actually it’s probably more beneficial sometimes in some jobs to not have the alpha worker, that, you know, someone maybe who’s older would be far more happy to be working in that shop or in that library, and that people bring different things.
So, um, yeah, I mean I’m now doing work with Directors UK. I do a lot with them. It’s a body of directors, um, and we’re now doing a lot of work on disability because there’s lots of disabled people that are directors and want to get work, basically. And there’s ways of doing it and there’s, um, there’s a government grant that helps give support for doing this. And we need different perspectives and different voices, and the more diverse our workforce, the more innovative we can be in what we’re making, what we’re telling, or what product we make.
David: I, I think it’s, uh, it’s important for organizations to embrace the fact that the workforce is a diverse organism, if you like. It’s, it’s, uh, there isn’t one type of work that gives everybody meaning. It could be, it could be anything. So the guys at La Fageda, uh, you know, a lot of it is factory work, it’s packing, it’s “such a machine, do your thing and if it doesn’t do a thing, when you turn a screw or a, a lever and it starts doing it again.”
It, you know, it’s not, um, suddenly this is an amazing workplace for—the, it’s a factory and it makes, it makes a foodstuff that has to be of a certain standard and has to be, uh, shipped out, delivered to people that are expecting it. So all of that goes on. But this, this side, this, this sort of elusive thing of, of meaning—it means something different to whoever you ask. And so an organization that, that is nimble and alive to the fact that a workforce is full of different people searching for different meanings, they will all be fulfilled in different ways. That’s, I think, um, something that La Fageda does.
You know, if you look at the things they do away from the workplace, the extracurricular activities, the drama groups, the art classes, the, all of these things kind of take it away. It’s more than the work. You’re then becoming a community. You’re then becoming a team, uh, a—I don’t know, you, you have better words. You know, do you know what I’m saying? It’s, uh, as Anna says, it’s 360, it’s holistic, and it’s not just about the work, although the work is the thing that, that allows everything else to happen.
Anna: And I think also in this case, the product is something that everyone’s very proud of. So it’s yogurts which is, you know, it’s a beautiful place in a forest. The cows are looked after. They put on bark for the cows to listen to because they relax, the cows. Um, you know, it’s a very natural product, so it’s something that everyone feels very proud about to be making. And it’s slightly more expensive than, saying, Nestlé or Danone, but it’s that much more homemade and delicious and things like that. So it’s something that everyone, everyone believes in.
Lisa: Hmm, yeah, and it’s so, it’s so interesting. I always love stories where, where you can say, you know, isn’t this wonderful and, and, and noble and so on, but when it’s also—when it makes business sense and it’s, you know, incredibly successful company. Um, and, you know, and they produce a huge number of, of products as well. Um, it’s not just like, “Oh, isn’t that nice?” But it’s like it—and it works too, you know, that it’s that—it gets good results. And I believe that that’s because when you engage people’s whole selves and you create that sense of community, it does create a different kind of mindset. I think of like, we are in this together and we’re co-responsible for this, for, for this organization. It’s more than just clocking in and out, you know.
David: Absolutely. But it’s, um, it’s, uh, it’s not an easy workforce to, to manage. That, they have, they have a lot of different needs. They have a lot of, uh, fluctuations and mood and so on. All of these things that means that the, the team or the different tiers of team management and supervision and support, they, they work in a, in an almost—well, it, it’s not instinct because they’ve learned it over many years and they’ve, they’ve developed processes. But it, it’s so smooth and so, um, it looks effortless. It’s not effortless, but you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t notice the amount of work that really is going on all the time just to keep the plates spinning and keep them, keep, keep the workers working.
Anna: And that’s what you’re saying about this. I think it’s all that intrinsic and extrinsic motivations in it, that if you want to get the best, even if you’re the most cynical person in the world, if you want to get the best, uh, work out of your workforce, um, they need to have intrinsic motivation. It can’t just be about what they’re being paid. It’s—they’ve got to believe in what they’re doing.
David: Well, one of the, um, uh, early lessons for Colón was, uh, the buy-in from the workers had to be, had to be completely upfront and obvious and built into the constitution of the place. That’s why it became a cooperative. There was, uh, you know, they didn’t start off that way. It’s not enough, but it seemed to become clear that that they—the way to really get people involved and, and, um, committed was to actually go openly up and say, “Okay, this is ours. It’s not just words. It’s not just a manager standing in front of you and saying, ‘Hey team!’” No, no, this is ours. And so that’s the model they chose and that’s the one they stuck with up until very recently when they’ve become a foundation [Laughter].
Lisa: I’m curious about, like, what has the reception been, you know? I, I, I understand that you’ve been submitting the film to various festivals and things like that. What—how have people been responding and has it been inspiring conversations? Are people sort of thinking, “Hey, we could do this in, in more contexts”? Like…
Anna: Yeah, well, um, we showed it initially. A shorter version of the film in all—in Olot, where La Fageda is itself, with all the workers. And that was probably one of the hardest because you think, “Gosh, will they be okay with seeing themselves represented?” But everyone’s absolutely delighted and so proud to see themselves and to have their story validated and told. And then it came out on TV3 Spanish TV, was very successful. I came out on a TV program on TV talking about it. Um, and then it got lots of press and, and another feature doc version has gone, you know, we’ve sent it all around the world.
David: Yeah, I mean, it’s had really good responses from the festivals that it’s played in. It’s been selected for philosophers. Um, we’re kind of—it’s weird because this is the whole festival circuit this year is not the festival circuit. It’s laptops and it’s people doing it’s Zoom Q&As. And so the, the feeling of sitting there with an audience and watching your film, we’ve been robbed of that by, by this virus, which is really horrible. So the, but when we did sit with an audience and watch that, watched the film, it was with the workers of La Fageda when they had their premiere. Um, and that was—it was so joyful and, you know, lots of laughs, lots of tears, and it was wonderful. So that was—there couldn’t have been a better audience to watch this film with than the workers. So, so that was pretty good. I have to say that was a high, um.
But as far as, um, the people that see this film, particularly if they have a family experience of mental health, or the—the comments and kind words that we’ve had from, from those people have been amazing and just genuinely really kind of wow, very, um. And that’s, that’s been verified, and it has played in a few specifically mental health, um, festivals. Scottish Mental Health Arts Festival was one and, and yeah, it just—that’s validation as well because you feel that you are telling a real story authentically and not sugar coating it, seeing their own experiences up there on the screen, regardless of whether they were actually making the film or not. And that, that’s really special.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, there’s some really beautiful and moving scenes and I, I can see now what you said about it being very intimately shot, you know, like following two of the workers on their road trip and, uh, you know, and being in a home with someone as they paint, or, you know, really getting a window into really tough questions and challenges about, you know, where will you live when you—oh, you’re back? Are you back?
David: Yeah.
Lisa: Oh dear, my computer says “system overload.” Well, we are, we are quite a bit to handle. That’s—that’s never happened before. That’s strange. Let me just see where I’m coming up to. Hmm, interesting. Is it your end or our end?
David: I think it’s my end because it’s my—I’m recording in Zoom, but also in GarageBand at my end. And it’s Garageband that said—I can, I can start recording again, but I’m sort of wondering if it’s going to do that again, um. How many minutes should it be done? Just out of interest, time file size limitations?
Lisa: Uh, well, we had—we’ve been recording for 20 minutes, but I’ve often recorded, you know, an hour and a half long conversations here. So it has never done that before.
David: Okay, well then let’s see if it does it again, um. Well, also, at least we’re also recording in Zoom. It’s not as good quality through Zoom. Uh, I know you’re recording at your end as well.
Lisa: Yeah, at least we have two options. So let’s try recording again here, and I guess we’ll just have to see.
David: Okay. Very annoyed. I chose these headphones.
Lisa: And where was I? What was I saying? I was talking about intimacy and following…
David: Yes.
Lisa: Yeah, I can’t quite remember where I was going with that.
David: Well, I mean, no, I can talk it, but I can answer to that if you want, um. So I think the way in which we filmed was, uh, very intimate. We use a very small camera, which is—you don’t even want to talk a lot more about that, um, and it’s just two of us in the team. So it’s sort of, um, it enabled us to, yeah, just sort of turn up, people not notice us very much and sort of, um, be part of what they were doing.
I think the, um, so prior to, to shooting, obviously we did a bit of research and we familiarized ourselves with other films kind of in the genre, um, and we were very aware that a lot of the stuff we were looking at, it was filming with people like they were wildlife, like from a distance in a long lens. And I wouldn’t necessarily know they were mic’d up, and it so they’d gone for that sort of covert route for getting this. And we just thought, well, we don’t want to do that. You know, we want to, we want to be as close and as embedded and as, uh, familiar as, as possible.
So, um, so there was no, there was no sort of artifice of pretending we weren’t there. Pretending that we weren’t there because it became obvious very early on that the way that they were relating to Anna and me, um, meant that they could—everybody felt very protective of us. They wanted to involve us. And because my Catalan’s non-existent, as is my Spanish, I was kind of like really—it was like kind of like the mute, the mute guy, you know. Everybody else was kind of the—I was the least smart guy in the room, you know. Uh, so that suddenly meant that people were really protective and really kind of involving and making sure that I was okay, getting what I wanted inside. And we were communicating with like sign language, obviously. No, it got better as I, I think as I improved, but that fostered a very common nurturing, supportive, collegiate endeavor. And it really didn’t—I think it came across, always through, you never feel that we’re intruding, the viewer. Camera, it’s, it’s never intrusive and it’s never uncomfortable. It’s always honest, which is, which is—you know, I think that’s a real achievement. You’ve, you’re—very, very rarely see that, so, so, yeah, I think that’s what people expect.
Lisa: Yeah, I think honesty. Exactly the right word. It’s not—it, it could, it would have been easy perhaps to create something very cheesy and, you know, uplifting, and there are very uplifting and moving moments, but it is a very honest portrayal and, and sort of, yeah, following someone alongside them of what it’s like to live with a mental illness. And I think it’s, um, testament to the film that you managed to do that.
David: Well, I mean, interest—interestingly, uh, we didn’t necessarily know that was the film we were going to make. It, it evolved over time because we were able to have the luxury of having that time. Initially our pitch would have been more Colón-centric. It would have been more about the nuts and bolts, maybe so this is a successful business and a lot more kind of big, big picture, if you like. And it was only as we were shooting with the characters, this is about people. About—yes it’s, it’s got one great protagonist, but it’s—this place is not just his story.
Anna: And I think the workers, like Maite.
David: Yeah, the, um, one of the characters who, um, is gay, but, um, ends up actually having—she’s transitioning at the moment. She wanted to tell us her story. She just came up and said, “Hey, this is me, you know, um, tell my story.” And, um, yeah, I think that it—they feel validated and, um, but you know, they’re the first to sort of joke about themselves. Like, for example, um, the two chaps we went to Lourdes with were very sweet. One of them, I think, has obsessive compulsive disorder and he goes, “Well, that’s why I love doing another take with you every time you say ‘Let’s do a take.’ I’m delighted because—” Yeah, doing things again. And he likes repeating. And they were—so actually, you know, one thing is that whenever you’re, you know, now I’m working with disability, you have to be very wary about the terminology that you use. And in mental health you do, and I used to get so worried about whether, you know, you see “someone’s suffering from a mental illness” as opposed to, you know, it’s not a permanent thing. And, see, and it’s quite right to be careful with a vocabulary we use in these things. But, um, in terms of the workers, all these people, they don’t care. They’re quite happy to say, “I’m mad” or whatever. I remember there’s—they’re the first to say it, so, um, yeah, so it’s, um, brightened to be open about themselves.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Well, having, having said that, I think it’s, I think it is worth spending some time talking about Cristóbal, Cristóbal, and, um, as you said, he’s this kind of remarkable combination of entrepreneur and psychologist. And, um, it’s quite common when I’m interviewing people on this podcast that, you know, very progressive radical organizations, there is this sort of unique visionary founder that does something in a very different—sees the world differently. And, and Cristóbal certainly seems to be one of those people. What is, you know, having spent that time with him, what, what have you learned about him as a, as an individual? And what do you think makes him so, yeah, unique?
Anna: Well, I think I mean he’s got this thing in that, easily—slightly fame, which are various courses I’ve had—I really admire—have that in a way. He’s, he’s quite distant and hard to get to know, um, like his wife is very charismatic, very personable, very sort of easy, you know. He’s, he’s a leading figure. And actually years ago, I remember working on feature films and my boss, he would never have lunch with a team. He always get yourself a bit separate. So there’s something about Cristóbal Colón is that, yeah, he’s always a little bit separate. Um, he keeps his distance. But I think I mean, to do that kind of thing, I think he’s boxing for lots of guts. I mean, because he just basically—I mean, I think he was always radical throughout his life and then just to sort of take a load of patients from asylum and go, “Look for work.” I think he’s just—he’s got a strong belief system and guts. He can take risks, to just do things.
David: Yeah, and he’s, um, he’d be the first to kind of say that, you know, he’s just kept going. That’s where, you know, there have been a lot of mistakes, um, on their journey, and they’ve just been able to keep going after each mistake they’ve had. They’ve thought again, they’ve come back. The, the, uh, the world or the universe has allowed them another go at it. It’s allowed them something, some other opening that can be the escape hatch from the, the, the, the, the problem that they were facing at that particular time.
So, you know, his, his, um, it’s very difficult because you, you want to think that these things are possible and repeatable and achievable by, by others. You want there to be a model and you want there to be a kind of a learnable model, teachable, that you could just transfer. And that’s what he did with 34LOVE as well. He wants said the work that he was doing with his foundation is to get other social entrepreneurs in, regardless of what the business idea is and to give them principles and lessons that they’ve learned, methods of approaching their enterprise that, that could be helpful. And it doesn’t have to be for mentally ill people. It could be—his, Colón’s idea is that it’s any marginalized wretches. It could be refugees or it could be ex-prisoners. That’s his, that’s his interest. But it doesn’t have to be that, you know.
So he, he’s very much into the principles of being transferred and the ideas or the thoughts of the possibility that capitalism is a, is a potentially good thing when done right in a sympathetic and an inclusive way. Um, so that’s the thick, but you always come back to this, this, this key issue of, is a remarkable man. However, he’s the first who, like, these, um, sort of conclusions about himself. Um, and when in the whole sort of transition to making a foundation, basically because he wants to retire, is to try and get rid of the cultural personality of that, of the brand, because it does have a cultural personality, to try and make it sustainable without him. Uh, but he is a super contradiction because, you’re right, it started because of him, because he is so special, because he does have this aura and this confidence.
Anna: And he also says in Spanish it’s got “mala leche,” which is quite hard to translate, but I don’t know what that means like balls or not giving a toss or something, you know. He’s quite happy to have a go at someone if they’re not helping him financing something or to just do his own thing. He’s like, or, um, you know, he’s—he’s got a very—strong street—strong streak—that’s about to, er—convincing his ideas and guts. I think that’s what he’ll say. He says “balls.”
David: Yeah, I mean, that’s probably, you know, so you’ve got someone who’s got a very strong egalitarian ideology, uh, and he’s got a lot of guts as well. And he’s professional risks, that’s that kind of little boiling point. And I do think he’s got a—there is a personality about him. There isn’t—as worldly, there isn’t, there isn’t, there isn’t this thing that when I go speak to him, I feel really impressed, but also a bit, uh, intimidated, a bit scared, this kind of—or well, yeah, I mean, that’s, I think that’s kind of—
Anna: Yeah, I think that’s something normal, you know. But, um, but yeah, I mean, our—obviously know him better than I do because of the conversations. My take on him, having spent the time that I have, as that, um, he doesn’t relish being the front man that he has to be, but he knows that that’s his role. He has to do that. And, um, and so it, it—his instincts are great for business, um, and he knows that as his strength. I think he know, he knows that his nose is very, very good. And he takes no nonsense. Something doesn’t smell right to him. He will absolutely go with his guts. But, um, as far as the other stuff goes, it’s—he’s a bit embarrassed about it.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah.
Anna: I mean, I think he’s probably reserved and doesn’t like this sort of, um, yeah, godlike figure or sort of, you know, guru that solved everything. He wants to normalize it really. But of course, the place it’s—he is that he is the head of the family, you know, if, if you want to think of it—as we were saying earlier, it’s more than a business, which means he’s more than a CEO. He is saying, “I, you know,” um, so it, yeah, it’s a, yeah, I mean, in the footage you’ve got of them sort of in the 80s in a little van leaving the, um, asylum, I’m just going to look for work. So there’s a real sort of, um, sort of outsider or sort of adventure, um, yeah, sort of seizing the opportunity, uh, to make change.
And the thing is, we do need leaders in our world. We think how few leaders there are nowadays, um, you know, impressive people but what you really look up to and that want to change things and that have got really good values at their hearts, you know. Like, you know, he does, for example, he’s never wanted to grow too much. It’s not about making more money, more money. It’s about keeping it intact as a family and small. So, um, yeah, it’s… Yeah, they’re not an exports and they don’t want—I don’t want another factory in every city in the world. I thought they want that factory to provide the work for those people in that area. If other people want to start their own businesses in other places, then that’s fine. But that business is doing exactly what that business is set up to do, which was to find work with meaning for people with mental offices there.
And what’s incredible is like a Rapture, the region, there’s no one who’s got mental illness who hasn’t got a place of work, but in that region, it’s very much if they want it. So it’s basically a couple of the whole area, so, um, that’s incredible.
Lisa: Um, yeah, it’s so interesting hearing you describe these kind of paradoxical qualities of, you know, having a strong conviction in something and not being afraid to stand for that and sort of defend that. And at the same time, kind of, yeah, almost shunning this sort of guru status and not wanting to be the, the hero archetypal leader. Um, and I think that’s often common with these, you know, progressive organizations, that kind of humble visionary. And it can be really tricky in terms of succession. There’s a lot of cases where organizations, after the founder or the kind of visionary CEO has left, it’s sort of reverted back to something, or it’s sort of crumbled.
So when I was watching the documentary, I was sort of nervous for La Fageda, thinking like, “Wow, he’s—if he’s, uh, stepping away, he’s leaving a hole there.” And I wonder who will step into that. And I, I don’t know if the intention is for, for that to not be one person, but for more to be a collective leadership or, but that can also be tricky. So I—some nervousness about that, even though like you, I would like to believe that, you know, we don’t need to rely on these unique individuals, but these things can be replicated or sort of inspire other examples. And yet it seems to often be people who are kind of just born this way, that just see the world a little bit differently, have a unique combination of characteristics that make them the right DNA to create these remarkable projects.
David: Well, yeah, it’s, I mean, there’s that, that’s that skill set is so—it’s brought in a way, but one of the most important things that the, the Colón has done is that he has used other people’s talents and other people’s wisdom. And he’s not, he’s not been a micromanager at all in that sense. He’s, he’s got help from wherever he can get help, and he’s been very good at corralling that, those skills and those—How do you, how do you set up a yogurt factory from scratch? How do you do that? He didn’t know, so, but he found someone who did, and those guys became thick as thieves for a while, and then—do you know what I mean? So his—and that’s, I guess, that’s kind of humble in a way. Uh, it’s sort of the opposite of ego, saying, “I can’t do this. I need you to, and I need you or they need you, and I need you and I need you, and we can all do this,” you know. So, um, so yeah, that’s—I mean, that’s what they say, don’t they? Always supposed to hire people that are better than you. And that’s the market with the leader as well. But, um, being insecure person will try and do the opposite. Um, but yeah, exactly. So he’s always, when he needed that, do you see what I saw it—I got it. Um, but yeah, and I think, uh, in my life, I’ve probably can see in one hand sort of inspirational leaders I’ve worked for. I think it’s quite rare. I think they are rare because it is—you need a unique combination of appetite, risk, conviction, not caring what the people think about you, you know, just going alone, but good instincts as well.
Lisa: Yeah [Laughter].
Anna: Yes, you’ve got the opposite example, don’t you? Like people like Trump you also don’t care very much what people think about them, but they should do. This, it’s a fine line between a Colón and a Trump, yeah [Laughter].
Lisa: Oh wow. Yeah, I’m sort of thinking about—in some ways I see La Fageda like as a real inspiration for organizations generally. It’s kind of—you could say like at one extreme of, you know, creating, creating a, a place where people living with mental illnesses can find meaningful work. Um, and that’s a very, you know, specific context. But all organizations around the world are populated by people, many of whom are living with mental illnesses are very varying degrees. And we often don’t talk about that. That’s—it’s often very stigmatized. Um, and we don’t sort of encourage people to talk about emotions or mental health or struggles. It’s shifting a little bit now, but it seems to me like a kind of inspiring example of, you know, if it’s possible to create a successful yogurt company, you know, in this context, surely it’s possible in kind of, you know, for one of a better term, mainstream organizations, that we learn from some of these ways of relating to each other, our fellow human beings, and, and, and talk about mental health and that we can actually free up resources and opportunities for people to get support and for that to be part of work, that it doesn’t need to be separate.
Anna: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Anna: I’m speaking of the day with a colleague who works with a lot of, um, people who are disabled. And she was sort of saying that she starts the conversation, you know, when they start working, “What do you all need? What, you know, what?” And that applies to everyone, whether you’ve got, uh, you know, whether you need an adaptation because what disability, whether it’s me that’s got kids and I might have to leave really early, or someone that’s got—so it’s sort of having a very open conversation. “What do you need to make your work easier? You know, what’s going on in your life?” So that everyone feels comfortable where they are. And you know, um, you know, sort of flexible workplace really.
And I mean, I want it to be that way from a humanitarian perspective, but I always do the same thing for most Machiavellian point of view—people will work harder if you if they feel looked after, you know. Um, whether that’s in a film shoot and make sure they’ve got a nice hotel and plenty of food, you’re looking after them to, um, letting them work from home if they have to, or whatever it may be.
David: Yeah, I mean, it seems that this, this one-size-fits-all approach, it really doesn’t make sense. And especially now that, that work is more atomized, or certainly our version of work. Yeah, I don’t know what the guidance has been, um, where you are, Lisa, but here it’s been stay-at-home, uh, and work from home unless you can’t work from home, in which case go in to the office. So a lot of the offices are very empty if you go to Zone One in the center of London. Uh, it hasn’t recovered. People haven’t flocked back to fill, you know, their office space, uh, to get back behind their desks.
So that—this haven’t done it, uh, and it’s, it’s that means that everybody’s, um, experiences work is now a lot more individual and, and is very much about their own personalities and their own lives. And so the management of that in such a way that it enhances as opposed to, um, the tracks, I think is, is going to be the, the way forward for most organizations.
Anna: Yeah, working from home means I can marinate a chicken, I can do a bit of yogurt, I can do what—I can see all those other things happen to me. I remember a true—she does all of it. I remember, um, years ago reading about Pixar, uh, Dean visited, very innovative, various ways. So one thing they had was a university, they had Pixar University. On Fridays where it’s a day when, um, you could do anything unrelated to your job because that would just make you a richer worker, as it were. So, um, allowing your, um, staff to grow by doing other pursuits, it makes them more interesting at work, but be able to sort of, um, deliver more or have the perspectives or, you know, makes a more vibrant place.
David: So you have to trust your workers that, that, uh, that, that, that time for themselves is going to be invested wisely, that they are going to do that. And I think in most cases, yes, absolutely. But the but the, the mindset of management is always suspicion, has always been, “Can I put a little bit of, uh, can I put some spyware into your Zoom thing and see how many minutes and how many things you’re actually—” Like, well, that is certainly that’s still there. But, uh, that must generate more resentment than efficiency savings. I don’t know. Again, you tell me this.
Lisa: Yeah, well, it strikes me that in a way, you know, your film and this story to me is a bit of a metaphor for a paradigm shift that we’re seeing in work generally. If you think about this industrial paradigm of work that we’ve had, which is a bit like, you know, there’s institutions that we see footage of in early in the film that are prison-like, where people are sitting, you know, in a courtyard with nothing to do. Um, it’s very sort of gray and monotonous, soulless, you could say. Um, and then they’re sort of set free, and Cristóbal comes along and creates this, you know, and it couldn’t be more perfect actually, the metaphor, because it is this like beautiful forest and he creates this organization and this, this almost like this garden, you know, where people are not treated like homogeneous machine parts, but seen as, you know, plants. And everyone has needs, different conditions to grow and thrive and flourish. Um, but they’re all kind of working towards this common purpose together. Um, and so it’s, I think, a beautiful metaphor for what I hope is also happening generally in the world of work, that we are realizing, you know, as you say, not just because it’s nice, but also because it, it is better, you know, it gets better results if we create conditions where people can bring their whole cells to work, if we can create conditions where we invite all kinds of minds, all kinds of creativity and soul and heart and, you know, all different perspectives rather than just the kind of dominant perspectives, you know, inviting in marginalized perspectives because that will add richness and new perspectives and innovation and all of that stuff.
So I think it’s a very apt story for this podcast and the conversations that I’m trying to share with the world, that this is an example that we can hold up as like, this is what’s possible when you, when you have, when you have faith, when you have a belief in humanity and what’s possible when we kind of collaborate in a context where we can all feel safe and, and encouraged to be who we are really.
David: Yep, absolutely.
Anna: Yeah, I’m sold. I’ll watch it.
David: [Laughter] I think you put it really well there.
Anna: Yeah, that’s what gives us, um, sort of the struggle to carry on and to keep fighting, because there are examples of really amazing things, you know. The work—the world can be a very dark place, but also there are incredible people fighting for change and doing, you know, extraordinary things. And that’s what keeps me going, really.
David: Hmm.
Lisa: Yeah, well, I guess on that note, what would you like to leave listeners with? We have people listening to the podcast who are, you could say, kind of rebels and radicals themselves who are trying to reinvent their organizations or create more meaningful environments for them and their colleagues. What sort of—what would you like to leave them with, or what words of wisdom could you share from your experience with this story and as filmmakers and storytellers?
David: Uh, you’re not alone. I think that’s really important, you know. There isn’t—there is a movement. It was nothing a while ago, it’s now something, and it’s growing. Uh, and there are more people sharing their stories, sharing, sharing their problems, uh, helping each other, mentoring each other, you know. All of this stuff is, is, is happening. Um, so keep going, reach up, connect, and talk to as many people as you can talk to. And if your idea doesn’t work, do another idea, try again, your principles are sound, I think, or sound—change them [Laughs].
Anna: I have the guts, I suppose. I mean, that’s little things that everyone knows anyway, that, you know, we need to embrace a diverse workforce and make sure to prepare—people care for our work because everyone knows that. I suppose just have the guts because, yeah, I mean, I—we all have great ideas. Let’s actually go out and do them. Just, just get out there.
David: Yeah, um, yeah, it’s—what you don’t want to be glib about any of this stuff. If you’re starting up a business or if you’re running a company, that’s a huge responsibility, massive responsibility. And it comes with a hundred decisions to be made every day, and that, that are—you’ve got to get some of them wrong, and they’re gonna, and some of them are not going to have nice options. There’s going to be a—do you want to—if you want to do option A or crappy option B. And so I—you know, I think just take heart from the fact that everybody doing what you’re doing is going through the same thing as you.
Colón went through those times when it looked like there were no good options. And all he had were his guiding principles. That’s those, those are the, that, that was the star that he could keep—his compass was fixed on, and that’s what got him going through with very little support and, and kind of innovating every step of the way on both the mental health front and the workforce management front. But it was a principle that, that’s what meant he could, he could sort of steer a course that he could ultimately be happy with. Um, and I, and I think that that’s probably the crucial thing. Get, get that right, and the day-to-day of the business, you know, you can at least—you can at least be at peace with the course that you, um, that you’ve set.
Anna: Values. And the last thing I was going to say is also that it’s difficult making this film and it’s difficult running La Fageda.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Anna: Yeah, so what—that’s down—there’s really down. And so what, what I said which is the positive end, it won’t make people give up, but what got you, what got you through then when it was difficult for you? Did you have principles that…
David: Yeah, we, we really believed in the budget.
Anna: Yeah, I mean, it’s sort of—I mean, it was such an easy thing to sort of, um, uh, you have to do—what to call it when you try and sell an idea? Yeah, just to pitch it. It’s such an easy thing to pitch. I mean, you never read my notes because it was part of us. We loved the idea so much. So I suppose, yeah, that’s one of the good things to really be loving your project because, yeah, you know, if you’re going to go through it thick and thin and, you know, uh, would be easy times and good times, whatever, to really believe in what you’re doing and, and values such good values at the heart. It’s a nice positive to end on.
Lisa: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you both so much for coming on the podcast. It’s been wonderful talking with you.
David: Thank you, Lisa.
Anna: Thank you.
