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Episode Transcript
Lisa: Okay, so welcome Timea to the Leadermorphosis podcast. I’m so happy to have you here.
Timea: Thank you for having me. It’s great to see you again.
Lisa: Yeah. I’ve been really looking forward to having this conversation with you because I’ve been sharing a recording of a webinar with you with lots and lots of people and I keep revisiting my notes again and again, so it’s really a joy for me to have this conversation with you on a topic that I think a lot of people out there are interested in and struggling with. So, yeah.
Timea: Thank you for sharing. I am very happy to share, it’s openly available, so thank you for having me on this podcast. It’s exciting.
Lisa: Yeah, so let’s dive right in then. I guess the first question is, what was it that drew you to this topic of succession as a topic that you were interested in researching?
Timea: Yeah, so perhaps I’ll give a little bit of context of how this research came about. So I was doing a master’s programme in people and organisation development. It started just at the beginning of the COVID pandemic, basically 2020, and this was obviously the second year. So in the prior year, I’d been doing a lot of work and research around self-managing organisations, reading about your book, Frederic Laloux’s book. I was exposed to quite a few interesting researchers and writers about what are the kind of work that I’d like to do in the future.
And I came across also Peter Koenig and his work on source principles and the money work many years before that. And during that time, there was a lot of online—everyone was online doing all of our conferences—and Peter’s conference, the Creating Loving Business, was just happening at the time. And I kind of felt like I really wanted to do something as I was setting up my own business for the first time after 20-something years of corporate life. I wanted to figure out basically what I wanted to do, how I wanted to be, how I wanted to create my business, what’s the kind of work I enjoy doing. And so that’s kind of the background and that’s how self-managing came about.
But in terms of specifically succession, so I love the work, Peter’s work around source and how we organise ourselves using the source principles. And for the master’s research, you have to pick a very narrow subject. And when I was reading into it, I realised that although there is a lot of research out there, no one really looked into the emotional side, the human side of succession. And I was also looking for a possible niche for my coaching business that I could specialise in. So that’s more the kind of, I guess, the academic background behind it.
And then, yeah, I’m really not good at handing over things. I’m very good at starting things up and disrupting things and coming up with great ideas, but I’ve never been very good at finishing stuff or handing over things. So there was also the personal need of learning about why should I care about this? Does it matter? And perhaps learning about how I should be doing it differently in the future.
And notwithstanding the fact that I, having worked, I don’t know, in three large American corporates, no one ever does any handover, really. There’s so much knowledge that gets lost, and I’ve been at the receiving end of either not being handed over to or not handing over things, and then the several months it takes to pick up your role afterwards. So I thought it was a great subject. It’s very unique, not a very common subject. And so I thought I could create a niche out of it for my practice, basically. That’s the long and short of it.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah. It’s funny, I was just listening to you and thinking, like, I used to quite enjoy handovers when I was handing over a particular role in a company, primarily when I was staying in the company as well, but changing roles. And I just had like a penny drop moment that I would spend a long time creating this like intellectual document that I thought was extremely thorough. Like if I were handing over to a clone of me, probably would be perfect. But I was just realising, oh, do you know what? I was always missing this emotional part. That was probably why I was always like, why aren’t they just referring to my handover document? It’s all in there. You know, there was something missing, the relational part. So I think probably a lot of people can relate to that.
And then like, there’s sort of the micro handovers, like you said, the personal lens. And then on a larger scale, you know, I’ve interviewed on this podcast quite a number of different founders, CEOs, owners. And many are thinking of when I retire, or if I want to leave the business, especially if it’s a self-organising one, they’re really worried about will it revert back to the top-down way of working? Like, can I find someone who can continue that vision? So I think it’s a really juicy topic.
Timea: And that’s, I mean, everything you said is exactly my experience too—the personal handovers, the interfering with other people, or other people interfering with my work, and it’s really hurting you. But then there’s also the, you know, actually, yeah, the founders, family businesses, you know, you pour your heart into the thing you create, and then what happens after and is a real thing.
Well, I don’t know if you want to talk about that now, but I have done, because of the research, the financial implications of that, for various countries and the European Union. It’s like I didn’t realise just how large a percentage of businesses depend on small and medium-sized businesses, which they often don’t get handed over well, and they actually fizzle out. And a huge percentage of people are employed by these organisations, and they suddenly don’t have work to do. And so it’s a livelihood of people as well as the survival of the companies themselves. It’s big, and it’s a global problem, and no one really pays attention, not yet, I would say. I mean, a few years have passed since my research, but I don’t think there’s a lot of researchers focusing on this subject still.
Lisa: Hmm. Yeah, that’s so true. I also think about organisations that I’ve spoken to, for example, where they tell me, you know, this is the third CEO we’ve had in two years or something. And you think, oh my gosh, like the amount of lost energy and knowledge and the expense of that and the emotional toll of that, like this is big, right?
Timea: It is huge. Yeah, I’ve been working with a couple of clients where somehow they’re not able to make the right kind of hiring decisions. And you keep having that churn and it costs so much energy for the employees, the organisations. It’s constant change, and everyone comes with a new idea and lasts for a year, and then another year later, someone else. It’s, yeah, it takes a toll, a lot of toll on people.
Lisa: Hmm. I remember also when we chatted the other week, you were saying that, as well as like lost knowledge and the kind of literal cost, you also use this phrase, I was looking back in my notes of like “walking zombies” too, that if it’s not a successful handover, or, you know, when someone inherits something that they didn’t really want to take on, then they’re sort of, the energy is not there, you know, and so they’re kind of reluctant, and the walking zombie metaphor is so strong, I think of like, again, like wasted energy, or like that there could have been someone who might have been really energised by that.
Timea: Yeah, exactly. And I’ve been falling into that trap myself, and I’ve seen a lot of my colleagues when they, yeah, end up taking on a role that they feel like they should, they have to, for various reasons. It might impact my career if I don’t do it, it’s a now or never. I had a couple of the interview participants who talked about this in their family business handovers as well. And it’s just kind of that energy, you lose the energy, there is no more flow, there is no love going on. And so it’s just dragging a donkey, like it’s really hard work for everyone, for themselves, and everyone else around them.
I have a whole bunch of colleagues who are waiting for retirement. It’s like, oh my God, can you just go and find something that you enjoy? And yeah, they’re waiting for that final money drop to come and then they can leave afterwards for some magic to happen. But a lot of people are conditioned actually for this kind of thinking as well. So they don’t allow themselves to find the joy, finding the joy of work. They don’t actually know what that is. So that’s a whole other conversation for another time. But yeah.
Lisa: Yeah. And I guess also, I’m thinking about me, I’m a bit of a people pleaser, I like to be useful. So I am definitely trying to learn when to say yes, and when it’s actually better for everyone involved for me to say no, if it’s not something that energizes me, but it’s something that I think I should do, or I don’t want to let someone down. You know, in the end, it hurts everyone I find.
Timea: Yeah, me too. I’m there with you on the learning path to say no. You know, no is a full sentence.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, I remember when Frederic and I—Frederic Laloux and I—started exchanging emails. Sometimes I would ask him things and he would say “it’s a gentle no from me,” and I thought that’s such a beautiful phrase. Like I was like, wow, you can just say that—a gentle no. Somehow it’s a no, it’s clear that it’s a no, but he said it in such a loving way. Also—
Timea: That’s—I’m gonna borrow that. That’s—yeah. Yeah. Thank you. It’s a gentle no. Thank you very much.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent, but maybe you could say something. Can you introduce them? Like what was the kind of thrust of your research then? What did you end up finding and what was it that you were looking to kind of present?
Timea: Yeah, so perhaps I’ll start by talking about the research question. What I wanted to answer is basically, I was looking for what makes it successful between two people and how could it be helped, how could those conditions be created to have a successful handover. And based on what I just told you, the definition that I came up with for what I considered successful is when the leadership and the emotional handover has happened. So the source role has been handed over as well as all the other stuff—you know, the legal, financial aspects. So I considered for my research success when all of this has happened, so it’s quite a high bar, but it really enabled me to look into the emotional side of handover.
And so basically, I discovered six factors. I guess they are all important, but the most important one is the founder’s willingness and readiness to let go. If they’re not willing or not ready, nothing is gonna happen. Basically, that’s the first step. And then all the other factors are supporting of the founder’s readiness or willingness or both.
I guess the key aspect—so I can walk you through quickly, but people can also watch some of the other videos on my website—but at the center in my little drawing I have what I actually call the “flow of exchange,” and I will explain what that means in a minute. Values alignment between the founder and their successor. There is the successor’s willingness and readiness is equally as important as the founder. Then there is the founder’s relationship with their project or their organisation, which was one of the most touching parts of the research—we can talk about that later. And then how the successor is being selected. That was the final piece and they are all equally sort of playing a part.
And I described the readiness between the founder and the successor as like a beautiful dance. And it’s like an upward moving spiral that they sort of build that readiness and relationship until everyone is ready, and it just sort of happens in a loving way. And if that energy exchange of flow isn’t there, then it’s not happening basically. That’s the blockage. So I see it as either flow or there is a block between the two people.
Yeah, so the central notion is I abbreviated it to “love,” but love is a courageous word for organisations, so I often use it interchangeably. It’s like the natural flow of exchange between two people that is voluntary without any coercion and the handover happens in a loving way. So that’s the definition for it, but it’s basically love what we’re talking about here, but sometimes people shy away from the word so I use the word “exchange” instead. So these are the key elements. And I don’t know if you want to go—do you want me to go into a little bit more detail in any of those?
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, what would be most useful? Well, I mean, there’s a lot to unpack and as you said, you know, people can also dive into some of the resources for more detail, but I was really intrigued by this word “love” and I remember you saying that it came almost as like an insight that there was a missing piece when you were looking at the data and the interviews and stuff and then you had this insight. Am I remembering that right?
Timea: Yeah, that’s right. So yes, it was a qualitative research and based on my findings from interviews—so I interviewed about 15 different people participants and I had behind my wall a big blank wall and I had all the findings and I was moving around all the Post-it notes. And you know when you’re just so in something that you don’t see the wood from the trees? And I just had to put it aside for a few days. We went away from home, I was dealing with other stuff and then suddenly I woke up on a Monday morning and I had this aha moment which is like, oh my god, I can now—I just got these things like yeah, it is about this exchange that connects everything that makes sense.
And that aha moment came almost at the very end. I was almost writing my final draft that I was gonna send in and I thought oh my god, this completely changed the way how I looked at the whole thing. So I kind of rewrote the whole paper at that point. It just made sense to me. So basically all the others are connected with this flow of exchange and if that love or exchange isn’t present, none of the others work. Basically, I don’t know if that makes sense. So yeah, and so that made that as a center point and then now it makes sense. It was easy to explain and it also is the piece that resonates with people.
So when I talk about it with founders or people who created projects, whatever, you know, even holiday plans, you resonate with this idea or if they don’t, they’re not gonna get it. Like there is no point talking about it. So it’s either like a bit of a Marmite situation. You either love it or you hate it. So either people get it or they don’t and then it’s not worth trying, but when it does resonate it’s like wow. Yeah, it completely makes sense. I feel the same and I was doing exactly the same and I was handing over. So yeah, so then it just clicked for me too.
Lisa: Yeah, it resonated with me a lot when I heard that and it made sense because so many people I guess approach bringing in a new CEO for example as like it’s any other recruitment exercise. You know, we’re either looking internally or externally, it’s like right, we’re looking for the right experience and we’re looking for this and this. But it makes so much sense that it is bigger than that when someone has a vision and they are creating a culture just by how they’re being. It made total sense to me that of course, it’s not just an intellectual exercise. It’s not just about someone’s resume. It’s a relational exchange. It’s a handing over of something energetic, you know.
And maybe people listening are thinking that this all sounds quite woo-woo—maybe not given the kind of demographic of my listeners—but it just makes sense, right? It’s especially when people have had a very strong influence on the culture and very strong, you know, the vision is almost like inextricably linked to them.
Timea: Yeah. This is why I think we should talk about the word “source” as well. Perhaps just as a reminder. So the word source comes from Peter Koenig who you interviewed back in 2020 I think, and I used his work. I relied on that work. So basically a source is a person who takes the first vulnerable step to create something, whether it’s a project, a holiday plan, an organisation, whatever. And that vulnerable step is “Right, I’m gonna do it and I’m gonna ask someone for help” or “I’m gonna ask for money” or whatever. It’s vulnerable because people can say no and then you need to deal with that letdown.
And that is the person who becomes a source and they are the only person in that endeavour who has the vision, who knows exactly what they wanted, how they had the imagination, and they also had that connection to that inspiration or energetic source where that inspiration comes from. They are the only people who have it basically. And that’s why I wanted to include that source principle in my research as a success criteria. Because that for me was so significant that if that doesn’t happen, then I don’t see how anything could continue or survive long term. And so I was basically looking for that energy, that inspiration when I was talking to the founders and then looking for that language when they were handing it over as well. So my research is very heavily influenced by this because I also included this as a success criteria.
Lisa: Yes, and I remember I was actually in a retreat with Peter a few months before I interviewed him in 2020 and I remember him talking about stories of when the succession from one source to another when it’s not successful or when something was missing, the kinds of dysfunctions you see are things like people still going to the old source first, even though they’ve left the organisation, they’re still going to look to that person for answers, or that person is still making decisions or weighing in, in unhelpful ways, or that people don’t recognise that the new person is the new authority of the source. You get these dysfunctions if it doesn’t happen.
And I think you also write this in your research, that when it goes well, people can pinpoint a moment, like there was a day, or that’s why it can be good to have a ritual also, like, yes, I remember, it was on that day, at that moment, when it went from that person to that person. Like we can all pinpoint that, and if it’s unclear, it probably hasn’t happened.
Timea: Yes, that’s right. I learned a lot more in the process beyond the formal interviews, because I can share with you a few examples. Yes, please do. But what I want to say about the moment, so I’ve had a client recently who’s been working with me on his succession. So he’s a serial founder of organisations, and after, I think, 15 years, he’d had enough. He’d achieved the thing that he wanted to create, and he wanted to find someone. There were some co-founders and key people, and when it was decided, it was recently that a successor has been chosen.
And I asked him, because I’ve been exposing him to all this work, of course, he’s been looking at some of the books and the research I’m doing, so he was aware of the moments, and I’ve been coaching him through some of this work, because it’s work of quite deep emotional level sometimes. And I was asking them, saying, make sure to notice that moment. Like, do you remember that moment? Did it happen or is it going to come? And he was saying to me the other day, he remembered that moment clearly. It was the moment when he came to meet the successor privately and said “I think we’ve chosen you,” and there was tears on both parts, and they felt that moment that there’s no need to think about it. I just know when that happened.
And he said, oh my god, it was such a lovely story, so I was so grateful that I could work with him, because that’s what we’re looking for. So sometimes it’s not ceremonial design, so clearly, actually, it’s not. It’s more, it happens in a moment, in a conversation between two people or a connection. It could be something that’s not substantially big, but you feel it, everyone feels it. OK, and I think it’s like OK, it’s not just like a connection or something like that. It’s something emotional, like, OK, it’s clear like I, the stewardship of this thing has now gone to them and I believe that they’ve got it. OK. And I can let go, you know. OK, OK.
And then there’s the opposite, of course, also, I’ve had a good client—one of my interviewees. So, he wasn’t a client, he was one of my research interviewees who was talking about, actually, three generations of failed succession. He was at the time the, actually, owner of an environmental construction company in Belgium. And the company was founded by his grandfather back in the Second World War.
And, to cut the story short, actually, the grandfather had two sons. And, the two sons were fairly different. The two sons, and it was interesting too. So, they didn’t want to hand over the business to one of the sons. And, they didn’t want to hand over the business to one of the sons because of the gender decision. He didn’t believe that daughters can do businesses. So, he didn’t hand it over.
Actually, what ended up happening, he told the sons to fight for the business, set them up for this massive thing that happened with lots of animosity and just lots of, you know, angst and fights. There was lots as you can imagine. So, they were fighting for each other. And then, the grandfather died. So, he made the decision on his deathbed. He gave the business to both of them actually. Both sons took over the business and the grandfather wasn’t there anymore.
And so, when it came to their turn, one of them, so, Erwin, who was my interviewee and his brother. And when it came to handing over their business to their children, he couldn’t choose which child to give it to. Like literally, I can’t make a decision between my two children. So, he didn’t either. What ended up happening is that they ended up splitting the business anyway and it changed the whole nature of the business. It’s doing very well now, they’re fairly successful again, and they, both brothers have decided that they don’t want to pass it on to their children.
And, you know, the whole story spans over 100 years, but it was quite hard. All the family business stuff, everything—
Lisa: Wow.
Timea: And I think what my interviewee mentioned to me was the impact, the intergenerational impact of that decision to not choose, of not handing over the source role. The damage that caused, that’s still there between the brothers, between the next generation, the children, all of that bad blood, bad feelings is still there after 30 years or 20-30 years from when it happened. So I think it’s quite powerful when it doesn’t happen.
Lisa: Yeah, that example is so striking and just the long-term consequences that can come from not successfully handing over. I can really see what you mean about the intergenerational trauma almost of not being chosen, of having to fight for it. That’s such a powerful example.
Timea: Yeah. And then another example—this was actually the opposite. So there was another interviewee. His name is John for the purposes of our discussion. And he basically took over from a lady who ran a care home. And they spent about six months doing the handover. But what was very interesting is that the lady who was the founder really took care and attention to introduce him to everyone who mattered in the organisation.
She took him to every single resident, every single staff member, every single supplier, every single stakeholder, and basically said, “This is John. He’s taking over from me.” And at some point in that journey, there was a moment when he felt like, “OK, she trusts me with her baby.” And she also felt that “I can now let go.” And it was about three or four months into the process. And then the last two months were just tying up loose ends.
But the interesting thing is that when I asked him, “How do you know that she let go?” He said, “Well, after the handover, she never called. She never interfered. She was available if I needed her, but she never called to check in.” And I thought that was such a powerful metaphor. So the crying baby—if you think of the baby as a metaphor—you can hand over the baby to someone, but if you’re still hovering around checking if they’re doing it right, then you haven’t really handed it over.
Lisa: Yeah, exactly. One of the things I was remembering about your research was the types of commitment you identified as a way of diagnosing whether someone is really ready or not. I’m going to look at my notes on this. I think there were different types of commitment and I thought that was also really interesting for people in self-managing organisations to think about in general. It’s about locus of control and coercion and how do you create commitment without coercion. So I thought that was interesting—these different types of commitment.
Timea: Yes, and so this was also really interesting because in the work I do as a coach and the deeper I dig into my own development work, I look for these words. Basically as a coach, these are the words that I cannot unhear. And these are the things when there is some kind of a pressure, either internal or external. And these are the commitment types basically that we are referring to.
And then I work with them to change it into, so what will make it that “I want to,” or “I will,” or “I would love to.” So what does need to happen in order for you to be able to say that? And then sometimes we spend several hours coaching on this, of course. But yeah, so this is where, when I now coach founders and successors, I look for these, like, are you really interested in doing this?
And there was one, it was really interesting, I’m just remembering some of the examples in the interview process. There was a lady who I called Regina. These are all fake names, of course, not the real participant names. And she was taking over her father’s logistics business. And the father has worked in this business for, I don’t know, 40 years, 50 years. And she grew up with this business.
And she told me how many hours of coaching and mentoring they spent together with an external consultant helping them to figure out that this is really what she wanted to do. And is it really what I want to do? And is there anything in there that I don’t want to do? So she did talk about some of those details. So that underlined for me how important that “I now want it” is.
And when you really want it, as a successor, the founders will feel that. Because if you are doing it out of obligation, they feel like, well, why would I trust my little baby onto your care if you’re just doing it because you have to? And so that doesn’t work. That’s why the founders will never be ready to hand over when you come with this kind of feelings, basically. So it was really important. So these are the things now I look for when I coach people. It’s like, do you want it? Do you really, really want it? And if you don’t, let’s be honest about it. And then go back and talk to your founder that you’re not ready. And why are you not ready?
Lisa: Yeah, exactly. Or in order to give a wholehearted yes, I would need to voice these concerns or I would need to get a clarification on this, whatever it might be, to really be thorough about that. And to really be congruent, I guess, in the kind of commitment you’re able or willing to give.
Timea: Yeah, exactly. And that’s where the readiness, both readiness kind of grows together. So as the successor, potential successor at this point gets ready, working this stuff out for themselves, the readiness grows with the founder too, until they both feel like, OK, now we are both ready. And then it’s sort of magic happens.
Lisa: Yeah. There was one person, a founder of a company who was wanting to hand over that I met for a coffee with and I shared the recording of your webinar with him and he found it so helpful. And he, as a result of that over the last, I think it’s like over the last year or so, just started having conversations with people that he could identify as potential successors. And in his case, he realized that it might be breaking down different parts, like one might be taking over the source role, but another might be taking over this part. And they had different needs or different strengths. But starting to have those conversations and having an awareness of these different success factors and this emotional component really resonated with him. He found it so helpful.
Timea: Thank you. It’s so nice to hear. Thank you. Because I often don’t get feedback about where my work goes. It’s really nice to hear when I hear the stories that it really helps people. So thank you for sharing that.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah. And I think I like thinking of it that way as like a sequence of conversations. I almost imagine like going for walks with different people, you know, and just like without rushing it. And each conversation is like, yeah, I guess moving up that spiral to use your metaphor or not, right, depending on whether there’s readiness on both sides.
Timea: Yeah, I think that. And I think I really like how you call it the heartfelt yes. My husband, you know, about the saying no that we started the conversation with—my husband has this really brilliant way of holding me accountable for the yes or the no. So he’s basically—it’s either a hell yes or it’s a no. And it’s so easy and so hard at the same time because of all the other obligations. We want to be nice. We want to be supportive. We want to be helpful. But actually, we are not helpful if there’s just the slightest concern and you would lean towards a no. It needs to be a hell yes. I’m still practicing that sometimes. So I’m not saying I’m an expert, but I think we’re all on the journey on this to really be truly honoring our needs and values and the kind of work you want to do.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, I’m on that journey too. I realized I had a useful distinction that I was being an automatic yes. So if someone asked me something, had a request like, hey, do you want to get involved in this thing? I’d be like, yeah, sounds interesting. Almost before I had thought about it because I wanted to be, you know, helpful and all of that. And actually, for me, it’s been helpful to choose to be an automatic no until I’ve thought about it. And then that helps me reflect and come back and be like, it’s a hell yes. Or actually, it is still a no. That buys me the space to really check in with myself.
Timea: Exactly. Yeah. And I remember actually, as well, like Tom Nixon, who wrote the book Work with Source, and I know you know Tom, he and I, when we collaborated on a project years ago, he also would always ask me, we would do like a needs check, like my needs in inviting people into this project are this and this and I want to feel this and I need this. What are your needs? Does what I described, does that meet needs for you? Is that interesting?
And also something he asked me that I found helpful was clarifying. Did I have source energy? So he—I think at the time, it was that he wanted someone to help with the marketing of Maptio, his software tool. And he said, what I really want is someone to kind of run it, you know, do all of this stuff. So he said, do you have—when you say that this is exciting for you—do you have source energy? Or is it more like helper energy?
And that was also really helpful for me to be like, actually, if I think about it, I think it’s more helper energy. And if we hadn’t clarified that he might have then been relating to me as like, I’m running it, I’m—it’s super energizing for me. And I might have felt like I was constantly letting him down. But it was clarifying for both of us to know the level of commitment that I was offering, you know.
Timea: Those are beautiful questions, actually. I worked with a couple of people last year and the year before on a few projects where we wanted to try what it’s like to really just do the thing when you feel you have energy for. And it was the first time I actually did a project based on this, really paying attention to our energies. And it was so wonderful. It has taken a little bit longer to create the thing we wanted to do. But we both loved the work, loved the journey to get there.
We were designing—co-designing with a colleague of mine—a mini retreat. We ran last June. And we loved it so much that we have so much love and energy. And we cried at the end because it was just—we didn’t make any money but we loved it so much. And I think that was the whole point. And I guess the next step will be also to find a way of making money out of this. But we just love the journey of experimenting with what it would be like if we actually followed truly our hearts and our needs. And it was so good. I highly recommend it to people to try.
Lisa: Yeah. I wonder if there were any other kind of standout insights for your examples of when succession has gone well, like the listeners could learn from or—
Timea: So there’s loads of stories I can share. There’s one particular one that as I was sort of revisiting my findings, what to share is about the relationship that you have with your thing that you’re creating. And that was the most beautiful and emotional of all the interview participants that I was working with. And because this is about your relationship with the thing.
And so what I discovered here was—so I basically asked the founders and in some cases also the successors when I could interview both—is to describe their relationship with the thing. Give me a metaphor or words that would describe how you relate to this thing. And sometimes people use words like, you know, I’m like a caretaker or creator, which kind of describe a bit sort of distant relationship, more temporary nature with your creation or your project. Sometimes people talk about that I was like a mother or someone who would help with the birthing of it, basically, which for me related to how difficult it is to create the thing. So it’s about the difficulties to bring something to life.
And then there were two participants who described it in very different way, and they used identity statements. Basically, one of them said, “I was it, and it was me.” And then the other said, “It was my life. I just lived it 24/7, it was just who I was.” And both of these cases, they had tears, loads of emotions coming as they were talking about it, and one of them was like seven years later, the other one was also like eight years later, they’re still very emotional as they were talking about it. And I said, wow, this is important. We need to pay attention to this.
And so what I discovered here is that the more attached you are to the thing that you’re creating, the harder it will be to let go. However, the thing that helped one of them—so this was the logistics company lady who took over from her dad and then handed it over to someone else. She had a really great experience of taking it over from her dad. So she already knew the work it involves in order to create the readiness. And she basically prepared the successor. She listened to her intuition, she was ready, and she had incredibly high emotional and self-awareness. Plus she worked with a coach slash mentor who was helping her to get ready. That really mitigated all the difficulties, which the other gentleman didn’t have.
It was basically in his case, he was like sort of yanked out of the organization for various other reasons, and he couldn’t do a handover. And even seven years later, he’s still talking about it as his baby. And when I interviewed his successor, who very kindly also made herself available, I asked her the same question, do you think that he let this go? And she said, yeah, on paper he did, but he didn’t. I know everyone is still talking about him. He’s still talking about it as it’s his baby. And then he had spent several years going through this decoupling of my identity from this thing that I’ve created.
So that’s a really important thing that I wanted to share because it’s something you need to prepare for. Or if you haven’t, it’s a lot of inner work. There’s a lot of deep identity level work you need to do. It’s like you are more than the thing you’ve created and being able to separate yourself from it. So that’s the bit that I love working with in this space, because that often happens. You know, you’re very attached to the thing that you’re creating. It is like your baby. Most people described it as my baby.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah. It’s so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. It’s, yeah, for me, it’s like, again, just to reiterate what I said before, that it’s—this is not like filling a vacancy, like a job position. It’s so much deeper than that. So I can imagine having a coach or having someone to support you through that and hold up the mirror and help you transition. It’s super important. It must be very challenging without that.
Timea: And it’s important for two reasons. One is so that the person who is handing over—for them personally, so that their energy is available for something else. Otherwise, they’re still stuck to this thing they created. And secondly, it’s because they still hold the source at this point. So it means that the source energy isn’t handed over to anyone. So therefore, the energy isn’t flowing. There is none of that inspiration, the intuition, the synchronicity. There is no one else holding it. They still receive those messages for themselves and the intuition.
So eventually, if it’s a small business, and this is where then the beginning of our conversation becomes important. So why? It’s because these companies basically die. These small, medium sized businesses don’t survive. A large percentage, like over 75%, they don’t survive to the second generation. And I think it’s only 5% who survive to the third generation. Very small. This is why it’s significant.
And if they do survive, because let’s say it’s a larger organization, because they have more financial support, then it’s all about that infighting, the constant competition for who takes the leadership, also this unnecessary politics that’s going on in an organization, that’s when that happens. So when I’m called in to work with an organization like this, and I notice this, that is often—sometimes I don’t have access yet to research where is the source work, but this is when I know there’s got some kind of source problem here. And I don’t always have access to sort out who is the source and do the detective work that’s required to find it. But at least you know where to kind of feel into it. What can you do as an organization development consultant? How far can you take it without sorting out the root cause, basically, if that makes sense?
Lisa: Yeah, I’ve—I know that I’ve spoken to both Peter and Tom about this kind of source lens can be quite provocative for a lot of people in the self-management, like self-organizing teal kind of movement, because it seems at odds with the idea of like a self-organizing system. So many people find it hard to reconcile, like there’s one person, one dictator, one supreme person. And it’s, for me, in the beginning, I remember I was very provoked by it as well, when I first started talking to Tom about it, like, but what, but that’s not what I read in Frederic’s book.
But I found it so useful. And again, I relate to it as a lens. And I know that Tom also talks about it that way. It’s like a way of looking at an organization, and there are other ways. But I find it very useful when, you know, like you said, when small medium organizations kind of die. Or when you know, you hand over a project, and it just fizzles out, like we see what happens when it wasn’t clear who the source of that was, or it wasn’t handed over in a good way. You know, Tom talks about like creative entropy, when it becomes unclear, what is the vision? What is this?
So I see and have experienced the kind of the confusion and the waste and the lost energy when it’s not clear who the source of something is. And it can be a sign of a healthy system, I find, you know, if you ask someone in a project or an organization, like, based on this definition, who would you say is the source? If everyone’s like, oh, it’s that person, usually you find that it’s quite—it’s easy for things to happen, and projects get created, initiatives can grow. And if it’s not clear, very often, you see kind of infighting, or like, you know, this sort of stuckness.
Timea: And I had these very similar thoughts when I was reading about all of this work during my Master’s. And there’s two things came up to me that I wanted to share. One was, when we talk about this infighting, and all of these issues that’s going on in organization, there is often fear present. And if you can replace fear with love, then you create that flow of energy. So I often ask this question from my, you know, teams that I work with, you know, what’s the leading feeling that you have here? And it ended up being always fear or being scared of something. And what would it be like if it was love? And whether we’re talking about succession, or how they, you know, manage a project or whatever? It’s a really powerful question.
So the working with source, and I love Tom’s book, I keep recommending it to everyone, is basically, if you could add the replacing of fear with love, on top of doing the source work, it really helps to realign, because it’s not then—so it’s not against self-management, it’s just expressing that love to the person who made that vulnerable step. And they do need a lot of help to create the thing they want to create. So do you want to take part or not? If you don’t want to be here, then don’t be here, go somewhere else. It’s really simple, basically. And so yeah, it does—I also reconciled it with myself, and it does make a lot of sense. It explains a lot of things that happened with me in my corporate life as well. And I kind of wish I knew this a long time ago. I guess I wasn’t ready, because I knew Peter a long time ago, I just wasn’t ready for this kind of work.
So the other thing I was going to share with you is a personal example of what happens when the source goes away. So I was working in a large American company, and I basically handed over my role, as you described, proper handover for months, we were documenting, talking, it was going really well to my successor. And then she started the role, I think she was a couple of months in her role, maybe in the first four or five months. And then she suddenly passed away. And I knew when I handed over the source energy, when I handed it, I knew it was hers. And then they gave the job back to me. I could not do that work anymore. I just did not have the source with it. I didn’t want it. And I took it because of obligation, as we just described.
And I ended up in that role for about a year, year and a half. And it was such hard work, I was dying, every piece of my body just did not want to do it anymore. And then eventually I left the organization, partially because of this. And wouldn’t it have been wonderful to find someone in that role who would have loved to step into this with a lot of new energy and creativity, but there wasn’t anyone in the organization at the time. And then since then, this part of the organization completely fizzled away. It’s incredible. And it just explains a lot of stuff. As I said, I wish I learned about this many, many years ago. It would have probably made my life so much easier. Even if it’s not changing things, at least it explains a lot of things.
Lisa: Yeah, I resonate with that a lot. And it’s so, yeah, I suppose if you had known this thing, perhaps you might have recognized those signs and you either not had taken it on, but helped them to recruit someone else or quickly, you know, put wheels in motion to find someone to hand that role over to as quickly as possible, recognizing that the source energy was just not with you.
Timea: Yeah, exactly. And this is why I’m kind of intrigued by what happens when someone dies and takes their source with them, because I had a personal experience on the receiving end or the non-receiving end, I suppose. And then a couple of my interview participants talked about this as well. I think it’s really interesting what happens with it afterwards. So far, I didn’t see anywhere that they could—well, I suppose at the Belgian Company, which I mentioned, after several generations, they picked up the torch again, but that grandfather who took the source energy with him, that was just—there was no life in the organization afterwards. It’s really interesting.
Lisa: I wonder what, you know, because sometimes death happens unexpectedly, but I wonder if like, you know, in the way that you do a will, if it’s possible to have something like if something should happen with me, like this would be the person that would be the successor or like—but and again, not in a like legal way, but in an emotional way. And to have those conversations always happening on the back burner. I don’t know. I wonder what the process would be in order to sort of, I don’t know, death-proof source.
Timea: Yeah, that’s a great question. I guess maybe we could have a conversation with Tom and Peter about this, see what they think. I think it needs to be about—from the way how I see it now, that source energy goes with them. There needs to be a new source with a new torch. And then they need to create something new with or without the thing that was already there. Because it’s an energetic thing. You can’t do it in a legal piece of paper. So and if you’re not ready, you’re not ready.
So if the death happens before—right now, the way I understand and how I can imagine it, it would need to be a new source who comes with their new inspiration. And they might take parts and bits and parts of the organization or the project to continue to make it living. So yeah, I would say it would be a new—it needs to be a new source with a new vision and a new thing. But I don’t know. I’d love to hear what Peter and Tom think about this. Maybe they can let us know after listening to this podcast.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And then I wonder what the new source, you know, what might differ in your criteria if maybe there is still some—I mean, well, I think there is still some relational work perhaps to do there, but you don’t have the other person in a corporeal form anymore.
Timea: Yeah. But, well, so they would be a new source. So they aren’t a successor. Right. But they would then need to recreate and take whatever they feel like they need for their endeavor. Yeah. So I wouldn’t—I would not look at it in a succession then. They are a new source with a new project that would feel good to me. That’s a kind of—that feels resonant, but I don’t know. There might be some other ways of looking at it.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Because I know that Peter’s talked about organizations where the source died and in some cases for years or even decades later, he can still see that that person is still the source, even though they’ve been dead for years kind of thing. So I wonder what needs to be in place for the new source to truly create something new, do you know what I mean?
Timea: Yeah. So I guess there is another piece of work that I was exposed to after my master’s—organizational relations system coaching—and we talk about ghosts in an organization and ghosts could be events, past events, trauma, people passing or leaving and how you could honor that with a little sort of acknowledgment, a little ceremony or something and take what you would have liked for you to keep and don’t take the things that aren’t serving us anymore.
So I would imagine that could also work. I’ve seen that work with teams when they had to deal with past managers who did something really bad to them, let’s say, or bad with them, and then they’re still living through the consequences of that. So dealing with that ghost event or person, there are some rituals you could do. So I would imagine that might be perhaps one way of helping the new source or maybe several new sources and then the project gets split into different parts. That could be also a thing that could happen.
Lisa: Yeah, well, it’s interesting to noodle on, I don’t know, I guess I’d love to figure this out one day when we have an opportunity to figure this out with someone.
Timea: Yeah, I like the idea of ghosts. It’s a bit like, I guess it sounds like a kind of a similar metaphor to what my colleagues and I talk about when we talk about moose heads, that they can either be present, but moose heads can also be something that happened in the past, a person, an incident, a dynamic. Sometimes it can have happened, you know, decades or even a century ago, and it’s still affecting the organisation and then you might need to investigate what’s needed to kind of put that to rest too.
Timea: Exactly, yeah.
Lisa: Yeah. So where are you now? Because it was a couple of years ago, wasn’t it now that you published your research?
Timea: Yeah, so it was in 2022 when we finished the master’s. So yeah, three years ago. Where I am now with this, I had a couple of clients that I worked through as founders to hand over successfully their source role and the energy, which I’m very excited about. I don’t—I mean, my research is available on my website. I’m very happily and lovingly share it with people. So I have been sharing it with a lot of coaches and practitioners. And it always—as I said, it’s always if it resonates, then people are really happy to share it like you do. And I’m just really happy for that to happen.
I don’t actively advertise it on LinkedIn because I do think that this isn’t a work that you necessarily get via online marketing. This comes via recommendations and, you know, like word of mouth, basically. It’s a very emotive, very personal subject. And so therefore, I don’t know if I would ever, you know, I would love to do more work in this space because I just really enjoy this type of deep level work. But I’m not going out there advertising it to a lot of people.
And there is still a lot of work that I need to learn on myself. Like I think it’s a never ending work. Like you and I both discussed about the saying no and figuring out how you are with a lot of things in life. So I’m not an expert. I’m a practitioner and it is one way of looking at succession. I think it is a useful way, but it’s not the way. There are other ways of looking at it as well. So I always offer it tentatively to people, another lens. And that often helps. So, yeah, I am—I’m just happy that I contributed it to the research field. People find it useful and great. So take it, do something useful with it if it helps. And then if people feel like they want to work with me, I’m here. My style either works with people or sometimes it doesn’t. But I’m very happy to share it. So that’s where I am with it.
Lisa: Yeah. At some point I might do some more research on it, but I don’t really have the creative energy for that right now, as we described.
Timea: Yeah. And for anyone who’s listening, I’m almost thinking like two different audiences that might be listening. And I wonder what piece of advice or invitation you might give them. So one would be someone listening to this now who is the source of an organization or a bigger initiative, let’s say, and maybe thinking of wanting to hand it over at some point in the future. And the other is perhaps someone who is the source of something smaller, a project or wanting to learn about, you know, in a more micro setting, how might they be a better source or better at handovers, you know, what would you say to each of those people as like a parting wisdom?
Timea: Yeah, that’s a great one. So for, I guess, founders, and also like I have been doing this also with my clients, I always recommend the Little Red Book of Source. It’s a wonderful short book that gives you an overview of what source energy is about. And also they can now look at my website. I have another recording, which we did with Nadja, when I presented a bit more detail. So just go and read it. And I think it gives you enough to kind of be aware of some of the things they might want to look out for.
And for people who want to go deeper and want to be more practitioners or perhaps coaches or want to go a little bit deeper, there is, you know, Tom’s book that we mentioned, Work with Source. And then also Tom and Nadja developed a new online learning program that I think they’re just launching in the next couple of months, I believe, where you can learn a lot more about source. So I would definitely recommend to go back to the sources of some of this work.
And, you know, I always also recommend if people get excited to meet with Peter, who is the source of this work, because Peter has such a wonderful energy and stories to share about some of this work, that you just go and have a chat with him. I don’t know whether he will like me sending people to him, but I always suggest that, you know, go back to the source and get the idea. And then I think it sort of shifts something, at least understanding around this kind of work.
And yeah, so I would say that on top of this, I mean, obviously, I am biased because I’m a coach. And that’s what I do. I’m an executive coach. But people who are struggling with this—get some help, whether it’s—and it’s someone who doesn’t have any interest in you being successful or unsuccessful, someone impartial, a mentor, a coach, a consultant who can look at this with you more of an emotional way. And it doesn’t have to be—most coaches who are trained well, they would do this kind of work as long as they are aware of some of these principles, but you can read this.
So get some help, basically. This is identity level work. It’s very deep emotional work and don’t shy away from it. There’s a lot of personal development work that needs to happen for founders to be able to hand over their projects. Whether it’s small or big, it’s the same kind of thing. And you know, the awareness, once you are aware, then you can take different actions. So just creating that awareness is often enough. Have I answered your question?
Lisa: Yeah, thank you. Those are some great resources. I know also, Nadja hosts these AMA, Ask Me Anything sessions with Peter Koenig as well. So I can maybe share a link to those in the chat. And they’re always really interesting sessions because every time someone brings different questions or he responds to what’s going on in the world.
Timea: Yeah, that’s a good call. And actually one other thing that just—maybe it’s one thing that just in terms of the actual learning of the factors, it’s like don’t force anything or anyone into it if people don’t want it or you get a sense that it’s an obligation. Like, I don’t know, if I’m organizing holidays and I can’t do it anymore, I’m going to hand it over to my husband and I can see the reluctance, then don’t force it because it’s just not going to work. It’s like, let the other person be ready for the work that you want to hand over or don’t do it. It’s much easier for everyone to just cancel or suspend or do it later. So to listen into the energy for both you and the person, I think is, I guess, perhaps the easiest one for everyone to apply no matter what, how big or small the project is that you’re working on.
Lisa: Yeah, that’s wise advice. It’s like to notice if there’s resistance, if it feels forcing, if it’s sort of like, you know, not to ignore that.
Timea: Exactly. It’s like, do you want this? Like want, love rather than I should, I need to. So I think if you can answer that question, is it a hell yes? Then it’s a no, basically. It’s really simple.
Lisa: Yeah. And I guess that goes the other way around too, if you’re trying to hand something over and it feels like you can sort of sense it’s not quite—it doesn’t feel like the exchange is flowing. It feels like there’s something the other person’s not saying or, you know, not to ignore that either.
Timea: Exactly. Yeah. And it’s often said in a nonverbal way.
Lisa: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me think of some—I think it’s in Percolab’s generative decision making process where they say that can be helpful at the end to have people do like a visual confirmation of a consent. Because if people kind of go, if they hesitate with their hand a bit like, you know, they can’t quite do a congruent thumbs up, for example, that nonverbal cue is saying something and that’s worth investigating.
Timea: Nice.
Lisa: Well, is there anything else that you would like to say that you would regret if you hadn’t had the chance to say in this conversation or anything that’s sitting with you as we start to wrap up?
Timea: That’s a great question. If I have anything to regret, gosh, that’s a big question. Suddenly I’m thinking, oh my God, I need to think about something cool to say. Well, I guess I just, perhaps a big thank you that I want to say to everyone who helped me to get onto this journey, like acknowledging the sources and the teachers and the practitioners that I worked with, including Peter, Tom, Nadja, Tash, also for you to invite me to share this. Anyone, all my master’s program learning set that were challenging us to write a good thesis. I’m just grateful for everyone’s support. And I hope in a small way I contributed to this field that they can move forward with something useful. So I guess just gratitude is what I want to say. So thank you for everyone. And thank you for you. It’s my first podcast. And so thank you for having me.
Lisa: Yeah. Thank you for being here and thank you for this work. As I said at the beginning, I’ve shared it with many people who have found it like an oasis in the desert, because I think people do feel like it is a big step emotionally and it’s vulnerable. And this feels like there isn’t something out there like this, I think, and people really resonate with it. So thank you so much for putting it out into the world.
Timea: Thank you. Okay.
