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Episode Transcript
Lisa: Mr. Chaudhary, thank you so much for coming on the Leadermorphosis podcast. I’m really looking forward to hearing about Jaipur Rugs and the amazing work you’ve been doing. So I thought we could start with perhaps, for people listening who don’t know anything about you and your company, what do you think are the key pieces of information for people to know? What makes Jaipur Rugs special?
Mr. Chaudhary: Jaipur Rugs works with artisans in six hundred villages in India, and all these women are working from their own home. We work with them to change their mindset and bring heart-to-heart connection with each other. Carpet industry is one of the most unorganised sectors and is still largely dependent on contractors. At Jaipur Rugs, we have developed direct connection with weavers by eliminating the middleman so that benefits can be directly reached to the artisans. In his case study, CK Prahalad said it is connecting the poorest of the poorest to the richest of the richest by enhancing the capability at the grassroots.
I often say that we don’t sell carpet. We sell family blessings. We sell stories. We sell experiences. And our carpet is free. When our customer buys our carpets, he gets the blessing of our artisans, and our artisans receive back the healing which comes from the customer happiness and warmth. And this completes the circle. Jaipur Rugs is known as a healing organisation working to bring human transformation and dignity at the grassroots.
Lisa: Thank you. I’ve read about Jaipur Rugs that love is quite a key part of your vision and how you work. What does love mean to you in the context of your business?
Mr. Chaudhary: Love means that if I love myself, it starts overflowing and reaches to the others. But my experience is that it only overflows if you love yourself.
Lisa: One of the things that I read about Jaipur Rugs that was interesting to me, you know on the topic of being quite a special organisation I think not just in India but anywhere in the world, I really liked this idea I read about which you call the Higher School of Unlearning. Can you tell us about what that is?
Mr. Chaudhary: When all my five children joined, the business started growing like a wildfire. To support the rapid growth of the business, I had to hire praised and experienced professionals, but all they put me upside down. I learned that knowledge is power, but too much knowledge gained without practice doubles ego.
Practitioners sometimes get their skills without having the knowledge. To break the ego of our professionals, I started a learning initiative which we named Higher School of Unlearning. We made the professionals work with our older uneducated people in different departments to develop a deep understanding of the business processes. I also took the challenge to teach them the basic fundamentals to manage the business and people like ours, which they never learned in their schools and colleges.
We also work on the philosophy “finding yourself through losing yourself.” The more I lose myself, the more I find myself. Learning, unlearning and re-learning is a continuous process, and it brings a childlike innocence which is important for business to flourish in an organic manner.
Lisa: Thank you for sharing. I think so many organisations out there, when they hire people who have come from business school or traditional education or other companies, it’s really difficult for them to adapt to a different way of working which, as you say, involves unlearning. So I just love that you have this School of Unlearning and that the first thing they do is they go and they experience firsthand what it’s like to be among the weavers and to see, you know, where the value is really created firsthand. So I think that’s really interesting. Is it challenging for people to do that? Like, is it unusual or do people find it valuable pretty quickly?
Mr. Chaudhary: It depends upon the people. There are so many people who have got the fixed mindset and it is very difficult to make them realise. But I think, as I told you, that the people who are like the child, who are innocent, then they take my advice and start working on that.
Lisa: I really like this idea of going back to childlike innocence and curiosity and openness. So I’m curious, Mr. Chaudhary, because from the beginning I know that Jaipur Rugs is quite a radical organisation, and I think in the beginning perhaps many people might have thought you were crazy for starting a business in this way. And now you’re entering into a new phase, as I understand, where you’re talking to people like Frederic Laloux, Doug Kirkpatrick, Miki Kashtan, and you’re really interested in taking it to the next level in terms of self-management and really kind of decentralising. What is important to you about learning more about this and helping the organisation evolve in that way?
Mr. Chaudhary: The problem started when I established the head office in 1999 in Jaipur. People in head office did not have the understanding about people, processes and products at the grassroots. Self-management was already there, but at the head office everyone went for a command and control approach. Nobody understands the importance of front line, and everyone tried to undermine them.
Because of this, we started losing the focus and simplicity in our business. When I started realising this issue, we started seeking help of the people. In 2016, I met a few senior consulting partners from Bain and Company who helped me implementing founder mentality in our business. They made me realise that front line is the king, front line is the heroes of the business, and front line pays the salary to the professionals. If there is no representation and voices of frontline in your boardroom, then you are creating a death threat for your company.
To further bring speed and scale, we needed to bring simplicity and focus in our business. For this, I started researching and came across self-management principles, and then I found this is my way.
Lisa: What are you finding are the biggest challenges in terms of this ambition to be self-managing? And clearly you see an alignment there between what your ambitions are for the company and self-management. What has been most challenging so far in trying to start to implement that?
Mr. Chaudhary: There are two major challenges from my common experience in implementing self-management. The first is on how to create a core team of professionals who are naturally inclined towards self-management and can then further become the ambassadors of the same in our organisation. The second is to create the right and relevant training programme to bring mindset change in the whole organisation. So now we are seeking help of the people from around the world who have already implemented self-management across their organisations.
Lisa: I know that when you and I spoke before, you shared that, and you just mentioned there again as well, that one of the challenges being in the head office and you’ve learned a few lessons I think about hiring people and realising that perhaps the mindset change isn’t possible or that they’re too ingrained. So as you grow as an organisation, how do you think you can keep alive this culture as new people come in? You know, how can you keep that culture sustained and keep this kind of respect for, you know, as you say the front line is king?
Mr. Chaudhary: Beginning 2017, I had an intuition and called my staff from the HR department. I asked them that from today we are going to change the name of our HR department. We renamed it to “Search for Divine Soul.” We decided that we shall only hire people who are highly sensible and purpose-driven, people who don’t require to be managed, people with empathy, creativity, and who are driven by love, passion and not by fear.
To develop the respect for the weavers, there are many initiatives which we are bringing our professionals and weavers together. One such initiative is called Sensing Journey, a rural immersion programme where new joiners go to the home of weavers in the villages and live with them and weave with them and help them in their work. This brings in a lot of love and empathy which resulted in heart-to-heart connection with each other. Furthermore, we are also working to create professionals by making them go through the same experiences, much like we did in early times.
Lisa: Thank you. I’m interested also in, you know, I know that you’re familiar with Yash Pakka, and I’ve spoken to Wade Krishna there. And a lot of people have said to me that self-management isn’t possible in countries like India where there’s a strong hierarchical culture. And I’m curious, what do you think about that? What is your take? Is that true? Is that a myth?
Mr. Chaudhary: Hypocrisy is the biggest problem in our country, which I had to face from the very beginning. I never understood how can a person be different at home, different at work when they are the same individual.
For India, I see this is an opportunity. From ancient times, we had many highly conscious people and sages in our land. The religiousness of the East and the scientific approach of the West, if it comes together, will give birth to a new humanity. India as a country has a huge talent gold mine, and to harness this enormous potential, self-management would be the key. The youth of new India is highly passionate, and all they need is love, direction and freedom.
Lisa: So it sounds like what you’re saying is is that there is great potential in India and kind of uniting some of the ideas, some of the spirituality perhaps of the East with the most scientific approaches of the West could really make a powerful combination. And if you can tap into this younger generation that’s coming through in India, but in general it sounds like what you’re saying is human beings in general have this potential to be more conscious, to be more human, that we don’t have to separate who I am at work so much from who I am with my family and so on. Is that what you’re saying?
Mr. Chaudhary: Yes, you are right.
Lisa: I’m curious, Mr. Chaudhary, because when I’ve had conversations with you and I’ve read articles, you come across as such a presence. You have this real warmth and love that emanates from you in terms of your leadership. And it strikes me that you have this very clear vision of how this organisation should be, but also how life should be. So you have this remarkable quality of sort of vision but also humility. I think that you really see the potential and the best in everyone. So I’m curious to learn a little bit more about, you know, these philosophies that you feel passionate about. Where did these come from? Like, how has your view of leadership been shaped?
Mr. Chaudhary: Leadership is a journey. Leaders are not selected. They are not nominated. They are not transferred. They emerge. They rise up in times of hardships when others stay seated. Leadership is not an occupation. It is not a job. Leadership is a passion, and actually it is a calling.
In 1990, when I was about to move to Gujarat to work with the tribal community, everybody in my community told me that tribals are not very welcoming for the outsiders. If they don’t like you, they can harm you badly. But one of my friends suggested me that tribals are innocent people and they have been exploited by the outsiders. So if you treat them with love, they will become your most loyal force.
So I decided to move to Gujarat where I stayed for eight years. In this period, I had the opportunity to train and develop a network of about 15,000 tribal women in the art of rug weaving. Initially, I faced challenges working with them, but I knew that love, empathy and respect put back the relationship much easier. In just a matter of three-four years, they started to respect me as their guide. It is then I realised that innocence and authenticity is the key for my leadership.
Lisa: Thank you. That’s a really interesting story. It seems like even before you had that realisation that somehow you had this unconditional love as a philosophy. Where did that come from? Did you have that since childhood?
Mr. Chaudhary: Yes, I think I had this in childhood. But I think in last 10 years, when people started visiting to our weavers and when they started talking about Jaipur Rugs business model, then I realised first time in my life that I’m driven by love.
Lisa: I’m wondering what is on the horizon for Jaipur Rugs now? Like, what do you see as the next steps for really continuing to realise this vision and sort of create this? I know there’s a book that you were part of, “The Fortune at the Bottom of the Pyramid.” You know, really sort of shifting things by looking at improving the lives of people at the bottom of the pyramid, so to speak. And Jaipur Rugs has been incredibly successful as a result through this, you know, very deep love-driven mission. So what’s next? What would you like to see happening?
Mr. Chaudhary: My vision is to create best artisan proposition on the Earth where each and every of our artisans will become the artist and shall be connected with the world of design. This shall allow the artisan to create a greater share of the wealth they produce.
Furthermore, I see Jaipur Rugs played the role of connecting the end consumer with the artisan so that they can both emotionally connect with each other. This shall lead to the utmost level of dignity of our artisans and will lead to a future of co-creation.
In last year in 2019, in his book “Healing Organisation,” they published a case study on Jaipur Rugs about the power of innocence. I believe that innocence could be the future of the business. Innocent people, just like children, have the power to see and understand things others can’t, and this will transform the businesses around the world. Jaipur Rugs shall become a business ashram, a place for the people to find their clarity of purpose and to gain higher consciousness.
Lisa: Wow, it’s inspiring stuff. I’m wondering if you could share a story or two perhaps of some examples of some of the weavers or the employees in Jaipur Rugs whose lives have been transformed, or some examples that to you are inspiring or are treasured in terms of like, this is what I’m striving for.
Mr. Chaudhary: There are thousands of examples with our weavers. When our customers and the people of so many countries, they go to meet them, they never can imagine that through this weaving they are so happy and they feel so dignified and they get so much confidence.
I want to share a story with you. One day I was sitting in my office and I got a phone call from the village. One of our villages is near Jaipur, and the lady said, “I’m a Harvard professor and I’m in your village and I am so impressed that what Jaipur Rugs have done with these weavers. So I want to meet you.” And then she came to my office and she told me, “I’m coming to India from last 10 years to bring the empathy in all the big and great hospitals in India, and we are doing a research in Harvard to bring the empathy, compassion with the patients. But what I have seen in your village, this is the perfect example of empathy and compassion. And I am very sorry to say that we missed it. We tried very hard, but we were not able to make it happen. So we want to learn from you.”
Lisa: I’m wondering, Mr. Chaudhary, if you’ve ever been challenged by people from more traditional organisations, for example, who say, “Well, Mr. Chaudhary, all of this love and compassion stuff sounds lovely, but what about, you know, business results? Like, does this really make a difference? And, you know, do I really have time to be doing all of this?” You know, what do you say to people who are skeptical about the difference that this mindset makes?
Mr. Chaudhary: I want to tell you one thing that since I started with this business, I’m in this business from last 42 years, and up to the 30 years of my life, everybody was telling me the same thing that “Mr. Chaudhary, you are a very good person but you are a very bad businessman.”
But the growth which I see in my business in last 12 years is a surprise for the whole world. And I think it is a global phenomenon. When our customers and people go to see our weavers, when they see their happiness, and when they see all these people are driven by the love, they also see it makes the perfect business sense because Jaipur Rugs have loved them and they are paying back to the customer.
We gave all our weavers three criteria: zero defect, on-time delivery, and quality. And I am happy to say that all our weavers are taking care of all these criteria. And that is why our customer is so happy, and that is why our brand is such a luxurious brand. People want to buy, people would love to buy the Jaipur Rugs carpets only due to this philosophy. So I think love makes perfect business sense to satisfy the customer needs.
Lisa: It must give you some satisfaction now that there’s proof, right? It’s proof that it works. So what advice would you give to people who are listening who, like you, are interested in introducing self-management principles to fulfill the purpose of their organisation even more strongly? What advice would you give them in terms of what you’re learning so far?
Mr. Chaudhary: “Find yourself from losing yourself,” because the more you will lose yourself, the more you will find yourself. The problem is not outside but inside, and it begins with you.
Second, self-management people need love, direction and freedom. Self-management is not about empowering the front line, the doers. Self-management is about empowering the front line AND the doers. We must not forget that they are the heroes and kings of the business.
Lisa: Those are wise words. For you, has it always been easy? I mean, what has your journey been with losing yourself in order to find yourself? Have you had painful moments as a leader in noticing your own blind spots or pitfalls? What has your journey been like?
Mr. Chaudhary: I found myself that I’m driven by the three things. The first is unconsciousness, and the second is the desires, and the third is the ego. And I also found that it is affecting my decision. And I also found that I’m driven by the habits, and I have to autopilot mode all the time without the consciousness.
So early in the days, I used to reflect what I did yesterday. I did yesterday due to my habits? Either I was reactive or responsive? And slowly, slowly I found that I am getting more consciousness. And now I’m happy to say that I have developed a level of consciousness where I can see what I do. So now I have more power to choose. Now I am a good listener and I became more responsive. And this changed my behavior so much that it became very easier for me to bring the results in my organisation through my own behavior.
Lisa: Thank you for sharing. I think this is something that I’m learning more and more, that if we really want everyone to flourish and create an environment based on self-management principles, it’s not going to happen by chance. And it’s not going to happen only by introducing new structures, but it’s so much about intention and habits and, like you say, being really conscious and self-aware of like, how am I showing up? How am I not doing the things that I want to be doing? And just continuing to practice until, as you say, you develop those new muscles like listening, like being able to let go of ego.
Mr. Chaudhary: What I found, Lisa, that iceberg is the biggest problem because what we see, what we hear, what we listen, it’s only 10 to 15 percent, and 80 percent is hidden in the iceberg. I also went to see Otto Scharmer in Boston and learned about Theory U, and then I started working on my own iceberg. And that changed me a lot because what I found that what you would do, we work very hard but generally we don’t get the results. But when I started working on my own iceberg, I found that results don’t come by working hard. Result only comes by what you were thinking when you were working.
Lisa: I so enjoy talking to you because you just come out with these wonderful phrases as if they’re, I don’t know, as if you’re channeling them from somewhere. It’s really quite profound. So what else do you think is important for listeners to learn? I sort of I have some questions that I’ve asked, but I also want to give you the chance to share. In your experience, when you’re telling the Jaipur Rugs story to people and other people are interested in having, you know, these results for themselves, what for you is really important?
Mr. Chaudhary: I think that problem which starts when we create our own identity as the owner of a company. So there are then we mix two things together. We mix our identity with our role. Our role is separate and our identity is separate. So when we develop our identity, we don’t want to lose that and we are driven by the fear. And so it impacts our role.
So my suggestion and my advice will be not to create the identity, only focus on their role. When we mix together, it makes the thing more complicated. And when we are driven by losing our identity, we are driven by the fear. So it really impacts our decision making, and then we are not able to take the right decisions.
Lisa: I really agree with you there actually. That’s a very clear way of putting it, to separate identity and role. Because I think that’s what many people are afraid of, as you say, that to sort of let go of having ultimate power, to let go of being the hero if you’re the CEO, is scary and feels like a loss for people sometimes, I think. But if you keep role and identity separate, it doesn’t have to be a loss.
Mr. Chaudhary: And I think it comes from the inferiority complex. Because when we are driven by the inferiority complex, we want to fill the gap and the gap is filled by the having the identity. Identity means having a false image of yourself.
Lisa: I’m curious what else you’ve learned, having spoken because I’m sure many people listening are perhaps even envious that you’ve spoken to some of my big heroes like Frederic Laloux and Doug and Miki, you mentioned what you’ve learned from Otto Scharmer, for example. Are there other key lessons that you’ve learned so far about self-management that you think would be useful to share?
Mr. Chaudhary: All these great people I see, they are the highly conscious people. And the world is moving towards the consciousness. So what I learned from them that how everybody can realise himself that he is driven by the unconsciousness, is in the autopilot mode. So how to break the autopilot mode? By bringing the consciousness, by bringing that mindfulness. And we are only can create the new future when we are mindful.
So I think the consciousness will be the key to bring that self-management. The more the consciousness of the leaders, the more consciousness, self-awareness of the staff will make a difference. Because the future lies in the present. So the more we are present, so the more we are conscious about the present, we are creating a future.
Lisa: It’s a good way of putting it. Do people come to you, Mr. Chaudhary? Are you noticing that there’s more interest now? You said about that you think the world is moving towards greater consciousness. Are you optimistic that more organisations will go in this direction, or do you see it still as quite a small percentage?
Mr. Chaudhary: I think, Lisa, that my experience says that in the past, organisations were driven by the muscles, and at present the organisations are driven by the brain. But the future organisations will be driven by the heart.
I would like to tell some of the stories which I’m realising. I have so many webinars in the best colleges of India. And last week I have two webinars with IIT, IIM. They are the best colleges in India. And when I was talking about my life journey and when I was talking this love and consciousness, I found that most of the students, they thanked me so badly. When I was speaking the same, that this is the first time in their college, this is the first time in their life, somebody who is giving them the right direction and this and that. And we they not only ask the question to me, they start bombarding the question on me.
So I always see that change, and I also want to tell you that from up to the COVID, in last five months, I have taken more than 50 people who are searching the direction of their life, searching the purpose of their life. And I am getting more and more request from the candidates who are searching for the consciousness.
And I also think that now the whole world have done the mistakes of command and control and suppression. So what I see, that this is the right way. People have to come one day. I want to give you an example that we have got very good relationship with Bain, very top senior partners. And last year they sent me a report. The report says, the research says that out of three big companies in the world, two companies will be closed down or will be merged with the other companies. So the research says that the bureaucracy is the biggest problem, and only those companies survive who will go towards the self-management. So this is proved by the results also.
Lisa: That’s good to know. I’m obviously biased because that’s my hope as well. But it’s touching to me to hear that students are both sort of surprised, like it’s so unfamiliar to them to hear you speaking in this way. But I’m happy that they’re interested. And I get excited about the fact that if they hadn’t met you, they might perhaps go quite a while before ever experiencing that kind of perspective. And I really think we need to reinvent education as well as our organisations because they go hand in hand. So it’s good to know that you’re spreading these messages into these top schools as well.
Mr. Chaudhary: And also, Lisa, nowadays I’m choosing the new candidate very carefully, and I tell them beforehand that you need not to compromise. That reality, you have to develop the understanding about people, process and product. Then your career is safe. So I have seen from last two-three years, the students are not only listening to me, but they are choosing that path.
Lisa: Good. I really hope one day that I can come and visit because it seems to me that one of the best ways to see the magic of Jaipur Rugs is to go and visit one of the villages and to see the weavers and the artisans in action.
Mr. Chaudhary: Our weavers need you in India, and you should spend a week with all our weavers so they can listen from you about the importance of what they are doing and how these things are going global and how it will create a new future.
Lisa: So in starting to conclude our conversation, is there anything else you’d like to share with listeners?
Mr. Chaudhary: The thing is that when I started this business 42 years before, the purpose of starting this business is to know myself, who am I. And I thought that I need not to go to a temple, not to Himalayas to practice the religion. I will know through my actions. I will know through my decisions. And now at this age and at this stage, I’m happy that realising yourself, finding yourself, knowing yourself is really making a big, big difference. That difference which is creating transformation in our lives. That if somebody asks me that, “Mr. Chaudhary you have got so much, you have earned so much name, you have earned so much money, what is your next step?” So I will only answer that to lose myself, because the more I lose my identity, the more I’ll be a satisfied person. I can create a difference in the life of my people.
So I’m very happy that the time has come and so many people are talking about the self-management. And people, like you, is the pioneer. So I’m really happy to see it.
Lisa: Do you feel like, do you feel like you will be able to pass on this legacy? Like, you know, after you’re gone, do you think there’s a strong enough culture in Jaipur Rugs that it can survive and flourish even without you?
Mr. Chaudhary: Yes. In present, I want to tell you that yesterday when I was outside Jaipur and I was coming to home, and at 10 o’clock I got a phone call from one of my staff members, and I was afraid that why he has called me at 10 PM, and I became a little bit anxious. But I came late and today morning he again called me, came to me. And I told him that why you called, what is the problem? And he says that “I’m searching the purpose of my life and somebody died in my family.” So from last 10 days, I’m realising that what you are talking in business is true. So I am surrendering my whole life to the Jaipur Rugs to make it happen.
So there are more and more and more people realising these things. And very soon we are in a position to create a commune of these people. And then we will be able to bring the collective consciousness, and they will run the business and they will follow this philosophy.
Lisa: That’s powerful. It strikes me actually that that’s a much more long-lasting approach than trying to teach people structures or processes. You know, this piece you say about identity and knowing yourself and losing yourself in order to find yourself. That if you can spread that amongst people, that is so much more powerful, I think, long-lasting.
Mr. Chaudhary: Yes.
Lisa: Well, that feels like a good place to stop, perhaps a big message and a beautiful message. So thank you so much for sharing your time with me and having this conversation. I really, really enjoy talking to you and the wisdom that you share.
Mr. Chaudhary: Thank you, Lisa. Very much.
