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Episode Transcript
Lisa: Swarnalakshmi, thank you for being here.
Swarnalakshmi: Thank you very much Lisa for inviting me to this podcast. Just so that you know, this is my first podcast, and I’m very happy and excited to meet you here. Thank you very much for the opportunity as well.
Lisa: Yeah, well it’s a privilege to be your first podcast. I’m happy to have the honor. So maybe you could start by telling us what is a children’s Parliament and how did you get involved in them?
Swarnalakshmi: Sure. Children’s Parliament - these parliaments begin at neighborhood levels and they are called neighborhood children’s parliaments. Later we also make sure to include the word “inclusive neighborhood children’s parliaments.” We begin from neighborhood, and 30 families in a neighborhood come together - like children from 30 families in a neighborhood come together on a common platform. We as children were discussing, when I was a kid, and even now children are discussing the issues that they see around them, the issues that affect them most, and they find solutions for those issues and resolve them.
I got involved in these children’s parliaments when I was 11 years of age, completed grade six in 2000, at the end of 2009 and beginning of 2010, when I got the opportunity in my school. These children’s parliaments established the neighborhood school level children’s Parliament, and that’s how I got involved. When I was a kid, I got elected as a Communications Minister, and that was my involvement in it.
Lisa: Wow. Can you say something briefly about how the election process works? So how did you get elected in your first role?
Swarnalakshmi: That’s a very interesting question, and I’m so looking forward to answering that. The election process in these children’s Parliament was very unique and free, different from the election process that we would have all heard in different parliamentary systems, like the majority-based elections.
This is something that has a consent-based decision-making system in parliaments. What we have, we usually have elections in a sociocratic way. Sociocracy is derived from two words: “socios” which means companions, and “kratos” means rule. So this is a rule by companions.
In the government processes, the forms of government, Aristotle said that there are different forms of government. He identified monarchy like ruled by one, then aristocracy ruled by few, and he referred democracy by saying polity. He said ruled by many, and that’s like the present-day democracy that he referred to. Now we say that ruled by companions together, and that’s how sociocracy works.
In sociocracy, we make decisions - we elect people based on consent. There’s a nuance of course between consent and consensus. Consent is acceptance, whereas consensus is agreement. We try out, we shrink our decisions as much as possible, and we see if they are working out well. Then we expand it more and more if it works well with our experience. That’s how we make decisions, and that’s how we also elect people, and that’s how I got elected as a communication minister.
Lisa: It’s really useful. On the podcast, I’ve talked to lots of different guests about some of the principles of like consent-based decision making, for example. I think you define it so clearly and so simply, but I think it’s really hard for a lot of people to get because we’re not used to that way of making decisions. We’re used to usually consensus or majority vote or autocratic decisions. I’m smiling because it’s just so fun that young people are learning these principles at such a young age in the children’s parliaments.
Swarnalakshmi: Of course, it’s a wonderful opportunity for us to learn such principles. As I started growing older and as I started getting into different forms, such as, for example, in my civil services training, I’m being told that I have the skills that people usually have difficulty in obtaining or in acquiring. That’s what my coach usually says to me. So I’m so happy to hear that from you as an emphasis.
Lisa: And as I understand it, you sort of, as you grew up, you got involved in different parts of the children’s parliaments and eventually becoming the national prime minister, is that right?
Swarnalakshmi: Yeah, you’re very right. As I learned over time, I also had a chance to get involved in different levels of Federation of these parliaments. They basically get federated at various levels starting from the neighborhood to the village, and then it goes further up to blocks and counties and then states, and from states to nations, and from nations, still right now it’s in the international level.
I had the privilege to get the opportunity of being in the state level as initially the Finance Minister and then later the Prime Minister of the state-level parliament. Then I also had an opportunity through my Parliament members, because they elected me up in the national level, I also became the national child prime minister twice.
Lisa: Wow, that’s so impressive. I want to come back to some of the things that you’ve learned and some of the principles, but before I do that, I wanted to talk about what you’re working on currently because I know that you’re, as well as studying for your civil services degree, you’re also a convener for the provisional Global Children’s Parliament. Is that right?
Swarnalakshmi: Yes, you’re right. I’m one of the adult allies there, and I also support the children to get together and help them understand the concept. I’m currently involved in the international setting up of the provisional - like right now it’s provisional - World Children’s Parliament. That’s how we call it because we have children only from seven countries, and we hope to get more and more as and when we get more participants from different countries around the world.
Lisa: I’m wondering if you could share some lessons so far from working, because I imagine working with children from seven different countries already must be quite a different context from working in a more kind of local Parliament. So what are some of the things you’ve learned in sort of supporting them to convene?
Swarnalakshmi: Supporting them to convene - that’s such a wonderful question actually. When I talk about what I’m currently learning, it just interests me most, and thanks for asking that question. Yes, it seems like it involves a lot of learning processes as and when we move into experimenting these parliaments in the global level.
For example, culture - when they meet as children together, they’re going to make sure that culture is not a barrier. Each culture may have its own value. For example, one country may perceive saying, starting an email with “dear” is something that they would prefer. In some countries, they would say “hi” is something that they would prefer. And when you say, some countries would prefer to start your email with “respected.”
Those are very different cultures, and even writing a letter involves that kind of cultural differences. So accepting them all and knowing them and accepting them as it is, or accepting people as they are, seems to be a little bit challenging initially. Now, as and when we go on, when we understand each other more and more, we are understanding how they work. I think that’s pretty interesting.
But still, we find that meeting virtually is a challenge because when I was in my state level Parliament, I had the opportunity of getting together with my peers without any barriers. I can easily talk with my friends, have fun, have chat whenever we want. We tend to relax, and sometimes, you know, for example, when we are doing interviews, we tend to suggest feedback to each other. We don’t really hesitate.
But these days, in the virtual environment, we’re not very much aware of who perceives what and how do we bring the feedback across to people, especially to the children, without them thinking that this is another school. So that’s a little bit challenging. But other than that, we’re finding it quite interesting.
We also have limited time these days because the school schedules, work online, the children are having a lot of homework and other school stuff to do as well. So it’s quite challenging to find time to coordinate with them. Other than that, I think the culture seems to be quite interesting.
Lisa: Thanks for sharing. I’m curious to know what you find are really valuable skills for people to learn in order to get the most out of children’s parliaments. So I’d love to hear a bit about what training and what guidance you’ve received over the years, and now as you’re sort of teaching and supporting with this provisional Global Children’s Parliament, what you’re realizing are the crucial skills and how you support people to develop those? What would your thoughts be on the skill side of things?
Swarnalakshmi: I think that depends upon which environment we’re actually choosing to teach. For example, if it’s a virtual environment, especially because you’re asking me considering the context of provisional World Children’s Parliament, I’d really say that it would be more useful to possess listening skills. Because sometimes the platforms that we use may cause some delays, and so the delays will test our patience sometimes. We may want to be a little bit patient first. So being patient is one skill.
Secondly, listening to each other more carefully is yet another skill in this virtual environment. Of course, even if it’s not a virtual environment, it’s even useful to listen to one another in direct environment as well. However, I feel that in a virtual environment, it is even more important and significant that we possess the listening skill and we listen to one another with patience.
Secondly, I feel that we require the skill of preparation. It’s yet another important skill. For example, when we are going to go into a meeting, it’s important that we make sure what we’re going to talk about, provided that we have less time, limited time. Without wasting anyone’s time, we may want to make sure that we convey what we want to convey. So preparation is something that seems to be important to me - for example, preparing the agenda in advance and preparing the meeting points that we’re going to speak about.
Of course, certain things come spontaneously and they emerge as and when we talk, but a few things could be organized in advance. I’m glad that we were taught initially when we were in the children’s Parliament. We were taught these skills, although it was not a virtual environment. We were taught these skills because, in those days, we were able to meet only once in three months as a state level parliamentary.
Lisa: I think I’ve seen this documentary “Power to the Children,” which I really recommend to listeners as well. For me, watching that documentary and seeing the circles of children having discussions and making decisions and taking action together - I think also this kind of circle practice is something new, not just for children who are learning this, but also for adults in new ways of working spaces as well.
We’re not used to really listening to each other, slowing down, sharing in rounds, and we’re so wired to jump to solutions, to talk over each other. It’s such a valuable skill to train people in, so again, to me, it’s such a gift that children are getting taught these skills at younger ages.
Swarnalakshmi: So happy that you brought this up, like rounds and sharing. Slowing down is something that is required in an inclusive environment as well. For example, as a visually impaired person, it was particularly for me a different experience because in an inclusive environment, when you take notes with paper and pen, I had to take notes in Braille. Braille requires a little bit more time compared to the notes that you’re taking with paper and pen.
These days I’m accessing technology more and I’m more exposed to it, but before I was not, and therefore I had to use Braille. That would slow down for me, and my parliamentarians did it for me. That helped me to break barriers up to this level.
In an inclusive environment, one of my experiences was talking in the United Nations. I had the opportunity to represent India in the United Nations, and when we were about to talk in the release of the SDGs, it was a time when the UN released its sustainable development goals. I had to be there at the SDG release along with some of my peers from India.
Our talk was designed in a way that we prepared our talk with the help of some adult experts. One person talks in their own language - like a girl shares her story in the tribal language, and then I try to get that and write them in Braille and then translate them in English for everyone simultaneously. There was a person with hearing impairment who did that again simultaneously in sign language.
So we three were able to speak together, just in one platform and in one voice. We did not pause for each other, but of course we did listen to each other. We kept on going and we finished at the same time. The reason that we were able to do this is because we slowed down for each other. It was also a different experience for me to stay with someone having hearing impairment, and I learned a lot. I wish my peers also have the same opportunity like me, but unfortunately, the COVID environment isn’t really providing that way. Hopefully, when COVID diminishes, we could all get together and share our experiences as I had it before.
Lisa: That’s so powerful. I myself had an experience of giving a presentation for a mental health charity, and I got some coaching on how to make my presentation accessible for different learning needs. I learned so much about the language that I use and how I present it, and slowing down, creating space. I think there’s so much to learn from really considering others’ needs, and that’s obviously something that you’ve really championed with your visual impairment. That symbolic speaking in one voice in multiple languages, so to speak, is really inspiring to listen to.
Swarnalakshmi: Inspiring to listen from you as well. You learned the accessibility features. I wish that people across the world learn this - they all learn how to slow down for each other. The statement that we made in the UN just reminds me - I could remember the statement that we all made. The three of us can speak in one voice because we slowed down for each other. If we are able to share and care beyond differences, if we are able to slow down for each other, and if we are able to speak in one voice, then so can the rest of the world. That’s what we said in the UN. That’s just something that I’m getting from my memory. I’m so happy to hear you say that you learned, and I wish when this podcast reaches our audience and beyond, I hope whoever listens to this podcast also gets a chance to explore more into accessibility.
Lisa: Me too. I wonder what you think would need to be in place for us to have more parliaments like this in the world, because I get really excited and I start to think, why don’t we just have these everywhere? Why aren’t we teaching people in schools all of this? I imagine there are some challenges to making that happen. What are your thoughts about how we could help spread this movement and support people to set up more parliaments, and also just spread these principles in schools, in workplaces? What do you think is important to make that happen?
Swarnalakshmi: First, I would suggest that our audience and the listeners of this podcast, if they wanted these kind of parliaments to be established, they may want to contact “PWCParliament@gmail.com,” which is the email address of the provisional World Children’s Parliament. So my team and I can take responsibility to revert back.
Secondly, I would also suggest that whoever wants to establish such parliaments may want to read the book written by Father Edwin John, the founder of these kind of neighborhood children’s parliaments. Initially, they were founded by him in India, and now it’s spreading across the world. We may want to read the book written by him, which is available in Lean Pub. The name of the book is “Hello Neighborocracy,” available in Lean Pub.
Lisa: Thank you. I’m going to put those links in the episode show notes as well because I just finished reading that book, “Hello Neighborocracy.” It’s so brilliant - really a practical guide to the principles that we’ve been talking about, and some amazing stories and examples also of what’s possible, like some of the issues that can be addressed and some of the changes we can make in society when we come together.
When you and I spoke in the conversations leading up to this recording, you said this great thing about mindset - that it’s important to have a collaboration mindset, and for children and adults to really collaborate, there needs to be a bit of a mindset shift. Could you say something about that?
Swarnalakshmi: Oh definitely. I think I was about to mention that as well when we were talking about the skill set. That’s one of the skills that’s required - the mindset of collaboration. When adults think, they may think, “Oh, how do I establish these kind of children’s parliaments?” And they would also think, “Well, children may think in their own ways, so they require only the support of the adults,” or “It is the adults who are very powerful.”
There may be some preconceived notions. We could see some shift in the world, but it would be lovely if we’re able to see more thoughts that overpower the preconceived notion of adults being more powerful than children. It’s neither the children nor the adults who are powerful over each other. It’s that the children see things that the adults cannot see, and the adults can see things the children may not be able to see. So we may want to collaborate, join hands together, and travel in this world.
It’s not about the adults and not about the children, it’s about traveling together. The mindset of collaboration is something that’s really important. When we really reach that collaboration, I think anything is possible.
For example, if you think about Greta Thunberg and Malala Yousafzai, of course they are all great personalities certainly. Imagine if they had emerged from an organization and if they were still with the support of the organization - because we learned that Malala was the district prime minister in one of the children’s parliaments in Pakistan, I guess. So imagine how the world would be if Gretas and Malalas were mostly with the organization, supported by a whole organization. That would be even more powerful. Organizations that get together can make great changes.
Maybe we could see, even in the recent Summit that happened in Glasgow, we could hear that children raised their voice. They supported, they recommended the government to make changes, they recommended the countries. Imagine had it been with the support of an organization, or the support of a global level organization, and that too that’s recognized officially by the United Nations. Imagine if the UN is recognized, so are the parliaments recognized. That would be a different scenario. That would be even more powerful to recommend to the government, so that the UN government and the children’s government could together collaborate and function. The needs of the children could be communicated through children’s parliaments to the adults with the double link process that we have in sociocracy, and the adults with their double link can come and suggest what their concerns are.
For example, the children may say, “Well, we’re sitting on social media, and we would like to be recognized. We would love to be recognized in Facebook, for example, to use social media platforms although we’re below 18, because we have the need to access them.” And then the adults can raise concerns like, “Well, what if if you are sitting more on social media, that’s going to affect your time and strength.”
So the children can then come back and say, “Of course, you’re right. We could see what we were not seeing before through you. Now we would like to - what if we decide on something like we restrict our time? Or if Facebook, if you have any such concerns, you while making Facebook, if you could make some restrictions in Facebook for children, like time limitation, or if you’re like more than three hours in front of your system, then the system alerts you and suggests you to go and look at any greenery.”
And then the adults accept it, and when they implement it, then they could see great changes. That’s the decision making - collaborative decision making, and that too with a collaborative mindset.
Lisa: It’s so true. It makes so much sense to me as someone who, when I first joined the world of work, I was very frustrated with the fact that I didn’t get involved in decisions that affected me as a low-level employee. That really annoyed me. It’s like, “But that affects me. I want - I should have a say in that, shouldn’t I? I know things that you don’t know.”
I think there is really a parent-child dynamic in a lot of workplaces. In the children’s parliaments, that dynamic is very literal - it’s adults relating to children. But I think we can infantilize children and assume that they don’t know anything, or they would need to be protected, we can’t talk about heavy things, or they can’t be responsible. Speaking to you and watching the documentary and reading “Hello Neighborocracy,” it’s so clear that we underestimate children and that we lose a lot by not involving them and getting their input on challenges that really affect them.
Swarnalakshmi: Exactly. You’ve brought up the right point. When you said “low-level employee,” I could just remember something that we always emphasize - the voices that need to be heard from the grassroots to the global level. I just remember the voices of the grassroots when you said “low-level employees.” I’m so fond of grassroots voices getting to the global level.
When you say that, I’m just feeling really a sense of collaboration. Getting the voices, the unheard voices, to be heard at the global level is something that we’re focusing on in our provisional World Children’s Parliament, which we soon expect to become a World Children’s Parliament.
Lisa: I’m interested to know, what have you learned personally over these - it’s been more than a decade, right? - working with these children’s parliaments. What have you learned about yourself? What have been some of the challenges? What have been the biggest lessons learned?
Swarnalakshmi: As I said, talking about learning something - the things that I learned interest me most. So this is again a question of that sort, and I’m happy to answer that.
I really learned many lessons, like how to be very passionate, because being passionate is something which is indispensable, I think, in these kind of parliaments and setting up these parliaments. Unless and until we’re passionate, it is hard work. Our passion could be on different things - we will be passionate, but on what and how we’re passionate, I think, matters a lot.
For example, if we’re passionate about wealth and enter into these kind of children’s parliaments, that’s a different question. But if we’re passionate about the world and all the change that we want to see in the world, and on the change that we believe we could make in the world, then that’s a different question, that’s a different passion altogether, and that’s something we may want to possess while we enter into these parliaments.
When I entered into this Parliament, I entered without any expectations. I just entered with a passion and commitment because someone said to me, “Hey, you know, if you want to enter into these parliaments, you’re going to be very committed.” And I said, “Well, of course I can be committed.” And I think I’m still trying to fulfill my work that I gave a decade ago.
So that sort of commitment and passion is something that’s really important - as I said, being passionate on what. I was passionate when I was joining this children’s Parliament on making change in the world. That’s all I knew. I just remember the first time when the press people asked me, “What would you like to do as a finance minister?” The first interview was like, “Well, I will help the people.” And then I couldn’t say anything more.
That’s passion - that’s something about how we’re going to help. Of course, we will learn from our peers and from acquiring more skills and from discussion and everything, but being passionate about our end goal is important - helping someone, helping the world.
I also learned the passion from my mother. For example, when we were making our first trip as a finance minister to an area which got hit by cyclone, to distribute stationery to the children who got really affected in the cyclone, we were choosing to go by car. Our car met with an accident. It was a sudden accident and nobody expected that. The driver was having some difficulties because he was bleeding - his nose was bleeding. I became a little unconscious, I would say. The nun sister sitting in front - the car had sunglass pieces entering into her forehead.
But despite that, my mother just said, “Everyone go to the hospital and come back. These are the challenges that we’re facing, which are far lesser than the challenges that are currently confronted by many children who are waiting for us there across in another district of this state. So we may want to go fulfill what we promised and then come back, despite whatever challenges we encounter.”
She was the one to take us and to really relax all of us. To me, despite the headache that I had, I said, “Mommy, I’m really going to stay at home.” She said, “Why? Why did you come here?” And I said, “Well, to distribute the stationery.” She said, “If you have not fulfilled that, it means that you haven’t fulfilled your commitment.”
So that made me adhere to what she said, and I finally accepted, went with her and with some of the adult coordinators in our Parliament. I was able to distribute the required stationery materials to the children who were there. It was so happy, despite that challenge, to meet the children.
At the end, as my mother said, I had two things on my plate: the challenges that I encountered, and the satisfaction. When I balanced it, the satisfaction weighed heavier than the challenges because the satisfaction was more than the challenges. That’s passion.
Lisa: That’s inspiring. I think it’s another thing that I think is inspiring about young people - they aren’t as cynical as adults. When I think about a scene in the documentary where one of the children’s parliaments were discussing alcoholism in their village and how to tackle it, I think a lot of adults would be like, “Oh, that’s a heavy issue. I mean, we’re not going to solve that.”
But I was really inspired by the empowerment of the children who were like, “Okay, so this is how it’s affecting us, this is very real, what are we going to do about it?” I think a lot of people are resigned in the world to “Oh, that’s the way it is” and “We’re kind of powerless.” To me, the neighborhoodization and these children’s parliaments remind us that we all have power, and then together we can really have a voice, we can make something happen.
Swarnalakshmi: I mean, that’s when we have a proper platform like children’s Parliament. I think when I did my dissertation in England - I finished my masters in International Relations with Global Governance at Aston University in England - when I did my masters, I did my dissertation on voices of children, enfranchising voices of children to the global level, where I discussed power as a main challenge, and also how the parliaments, these parliaments, help us to overcome the challenge of power structure by creating a governance process for us.
That power helped adults see things differently than they were seeing it before. That also helped children build their self-confidence. For example, you said alcoholism - the reason that our children’s parliaments are able to tackle these issues is because they encountered it. We encounter it in our daily life, and we see that the issues affect us, then we definitely want to make some change.
Somebody said to me this morning, they said, “Unless and until the issue affects me, I couldn’t see a way to talk about that.” So the alcoholism affected the children, so they were able to handle it, despite whether it’s heavy or whether it’s not.
I also had a chance today to read about a real incident in mica-producing areas. How the mining, the mines in mica-producing areas work - they usually send children as child laborers. One of the children who was a child laborer became a civil servant in the Indian Administrative Service. She expressed how her childhood had been, how she was powerless.
For us, for the children in the urban areas, it might be a heavy subject to discuss about “Oh, mica-producing area, oh mines,” I think they’re heavy topics. But for victims who experience these, it would be a real, immediate, and important topic to address.
What this Parliament does is that it brings both the children who don’t see these things and who also experience these things to come together on a common platform so that they get together and discuss these issues that they see around them. The children who are in urban areas have different issues, such as they may not have life skills. They may not have some important practical skills.
For example, I knew a person from the village who was able to tackle the mechanics of the car, while the child in the urban area was just theoretically aware of the mechanics of the car. So that’s the difference. But this Parliament provides a platform for the two of them to come together. When that happens, both of them get to share their experience with each other, and thus they get to know more and more about each other’s environment, and thus they collaborate and finally make a governance with that understanding and bonding.
Lisa: It makes so much sense, and it becomes more and more ridiculous that we don’t have that in country parliaments and governments - that politicians so rarely take the time to really listen to and share experiences with people who are affected by the things they’re making policies about. These neighborhood and children’s parliaments give a very scalable structure because they’re sort of nested circles with the double links as you said. You can really do that - you can tap into people’s real experiences and voices and integrate them into solutions.
Swarnalakshmi: Yes, of course. That kind of integrating - when we decide on something, when we integrate and make solutions, then I think we can imagine a better world created for all of us.
Lisa: I’m thinking of listeners now as well who are exploring new ways of working in lots of different contexts, many of them in organizations, in businesses. I’m wondering what advice would you share with people who are inspired by some of the principles that we’ve talked about today? What words of wisdom would you give them in their journeys?
Swarnalakshmi: I would recommend them to initiate these kind of children’s parliaments, and parliaments among the adults as well - these kind of neighborhood parliaments basically - so that they can also join hands with us. Of course, if they wish to, then they definitely can contact us. As I said, the email address is “PWCParliament@gmail.com.” We’d be happy to support them in establishing these kind of parliaments.
Secondly, I would suggest that they form, like we shrink our decisions down as much as possible and then try it out. Without trying out, I think we may not be able to accomplish. Trying out is really important. You may want to try out and see what comes and what we learn from it. Maybe one person’s experience may not be the other person’s, or one organization’s experience may not be the other person’s. So trying it out in a smaller level and then expanding it as and when we notice the challenges, we change it. We have the mindset to keep changing it from what we originally proposed. That’s something that the person or people together who establish these organizations may want to possess.
Also, I would suggest that they encourage children and that they don’t underestimate them, because children are powerful. Actually, in one of the papers written by Mr. John Buck, who is one of the adult allies of the provisional World Children’s Parliament and also the global sociocratic trainer who had written the classic book for sociocracy, he mentioned in his paper about Rainbow Community School. This school was tested among 25,000 other schools, and the fourth graders and eighth graders of the school were taken as samples.
These fourth graders and 8th graders possessed a skill that was better than the adults’ thinking, and in fact, they scored really high compared to the 25,000 schools’ children in their brain and mind thinking. It was the organization called Lectica which has a measurement scale between 1 to 14 to measure the mind, brain, and educational thinking in general. I think 14 is the highest scale, set at Einstein’s thinking level.
So it seems like the children had scored pretty much higher than the 25,000 school scores. The organization that I mentioned had done the survey with these children. When that’s proven, I think it’s clear that children’s thinking can be very advanced.
Lisa: That’s so interesting. To me, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Robert Kegan’s work about the stages of adult development, but he says that one of the higher stages of adult development happens usually when people are around 40. But I can imagine that if children were exposed to some of these practices and really learned these skills like listening and slowing down and including and making consent-based decisions and so on, I can really see how that improves their thinking, that that develops them as leaders.
I think that would accelerate so much of what would be possible in the world in terms of addressing some of these big issues that we’re addressing right now. It’s great to hear that statistic because to me it makes sense, and again I get excited because I think, “Yes, let’s teach all children this in schools please!”
Swarnalakshmi: I wish the same too. Another interesting example that I remember of inclusion and slowing down is something that when I got involved in these parliaments, we had the opportunity of listening to the indigenous people who lived here, who said that the children weren’t able to receive the required certificates that could work for their educational purpose from the offices. The adults, especially the social workers, were saying to us that they weren’t able to really get the required certificates for the children, and they were struggling for 10 long years.
My colleague and I, when we were kids (I think I was about 17), decided that we may want to do something for this. We assured them, we said we could try our best, of course. He made a documentary of the community who are undergoing this issue, and then I used the documentary to write an email. We sent it through our Parliament for consent, and then we decided that we’re going to take this up and send it to the officials.
So we sent it from our position, from our designation, saying that we are Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister, so we would really request you to take action from your side. It would be great if you could do it. I think when we talked from our designation, they implemented it in two months.
The reason that I said it as an example for inclusion is that he slowed down for me when he and I were working together. His name is Rihana Shaker, and when he and I were working together, he slowed down, he made sure that I composed the email. He and I made sure that he finishes a documentary because he only had the phone system, he did not have fancy laptops. So I waited until he finished, and that’s inclusion.
I think the same kind of thing is also what we’re facing in the children’s parliament, in the provisional World Children’s Parliament. We’re having, for example, a person - some may have flip phones, some may have smartphones, and some may have access to internet, some may have access to laptops and fancy computers. So we are right now working to make sure that our process works for everyone.
Recently, for example, we made sure to shift from Zoom to Duo because we learned that Zoom consumes a lot of data, and for African children, data is something that they’re not easily getting access to. So we are thinking to shift over to Duo. Because WhatsApp allows very limited participants, we thought that Duo could provide some support, and so we’re trying out different methods to see what works for us. We’re definitely slowing down as well.
As I said, in this virtual environment, we’re slowing down even more to listen to each other. As you said, the slowing down really helps us slow down in our life and to be inclusive. Because they were inclusive towards me, I’m able to empower myself, I’m able to get empowered, and also support others to empower themselves.
Lisa: That’s such a good theme. I think slowing down - I think we’re so allergic to that in the modern world, and we’re trying to rush things. But I mean, look at the climate crisis, and we’re trying to move fast and yet we take no action. Whereas ironically, if we could slow down, I think so many more solutions would become available.
I want to ask you, what are you most grateful for in the 11 years you’ve been involved with the children’s parliaments? What’s most special to you?
Swarnalakshmi: Being in this entire movement is really special. Meeting new people is very special to me, like people like you, and encountering with people like Mr. John Buck. I also had many people occupy my life. I had the opportunity to encounter with many NGOs like Minus Mine, through which I met different people like a friend of mine who lives in Peru, Mr. Matt Perry, who had been associated very much with venture capitals. His work very much relied on that, and then he decided that he’s going to work for the world, and he left everything. Now he’s in his spot, traveling to work for the world to make a change in the world. So getting introduced to those people is something which I’m grateful for.
Special moments as such, I would say meeting with different leaders such as Michelle Bachelet, the former president of Chile, who is also the present High Commissioner for Human Rights Council in the United Nations, and meeting people such as Dr. Ela Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi’s granddaughter, and meeting ambassadors of different countries. I’ve met and lobbied with around ambassadors of 50 different countries. Those are something that I’m grateful for.
I’m also thankful that I could make some impact in policy change where my thoughts - I had the opportunity to address the United Nations four times. In my fourth trip, when I was in Geneva (three of my trips were in New York, the headquarters, and the fourth trip was in Geneva), they were there for the Universal Periodic Review. They were able to bring some changes in the policy level. For example, we recommended the government to allocate the promised percentage for education and health. We were also able to recommend the government to improve the water and sanitation facilities. So a few of our recommendations were implemented. We heard back from them.
Lisa: Wow, that’s fantastic. Well, we’re coming to the end of our time together, and I just want to really acknowledge you for all of the amazing things that you’ve achieved and the impact that you’re making on the world. I’m so excited to follow you, and I know you’re going to continue to be a real force for good in the world. So it’s just been an absolute pleasure to have the chance to talk to you, and thank you for your time and for sharing all of your wisdom with us.
Swarnalakshmi: Thank you so much for inviting me to this podcast. As I said, I really enjoyed my first podcast. To the listeners and Lisa, thank you for your patience. Also, if you think I had made some mistakes, kindly let me know your feedback. I’ll try to improve myself.
Lisa, one more thing that I wanted to add - you were asking me what advice would I give to listeners. One more thing that I would like to add here is that maybe our listeners - I suggest that we may want to also share our own stories. What I learned in this Parliament is, as an important thing, when I entered into the United Nations, the first thing that I was told and I learned was to share our own stories because we see issues that impact us. Because we could talk about the issues that impact us very well, it’s really worth talking about something that happened to us. Personal experiences seem to be more valuable in the United Nations than when we shared experiences of others. Of course, they are valuable too, but our personal experiences are the testimonies. That’s what the UN considers.
For example, when I went the first time and addressed the United Nations in the 57th session on the Commission on the Status of Women, I think it was really impressive to hear many participants - around 90 percent of the participants whom I heard from different events - spoke and shared their personal experience. That impacted a lot. That’s why, even though I attended the first UN conference at the age of 13, that still sticks to my mind.
Lisa: That’s such a good lesson. I think that’s for me also one of the main reasons I started this podcast, because I know it’s so powerful to share stories. That’s how we can learn, how we can embolden each other. It’s something that I am also trying to practice myself because I have a tendency to think that I’m not interesting and people don’t want to hear about me, but I’m learning that it really creates relationships and openness and new possibilities when we share our stories. So it’s a good reminder.
Swarnalakshmi: Definitely. Your story - how you created this podcast is itself a story to me, and I’m so inspired to listen to it. I’m so happy that you’re having this experience with persons like me, first-time speakers. You could definitely derive or draw from what I spoke and definitely say, “Swarna did these things,” and “Maybe Swarna did not do these things, so you may also want to consider doing this.”
Lisa: That’s a good point! So is there anything else that you want to share with listeners that we haven’t covered yet?
Swarnalakshmi: I think I’m happy. Thank you for the opportunity.
