Leadermorphosis Episode 78: Sofia Reis and Luís Alberto Simões on experiments guided by autonomy and connection at Mindera

Leadermorphosis Episode 78: Sofia Reis and Luís Alberto Simões on experiments guided by autonomy and connection at Mindera

Lisa: When we talked about what to talk about in this podcast, you talked about, Sofia, the importance of connections, and that seems like a good starting point in this journey of exploring working without managers. Can you start by saying something about what your thoughts are about that?

Sofia: Yes, because I think we in the workplace, it seems like we forget all the kind of social rules that we have outside, you know, with friends and family, which is about connections, which is about relationship and building that relationship and trusting, compromising, and suddenly we are in a space where someone is above other people, and it completely deconstructs all of those social rules that we have that bring people together.

So connection has been, time and time again, a very good reason for changing something, and a very good starting point for anything that we want to do. You know, if we talk about any process or any project or something that we want to do in an organization, and we say, “Okay, will this connect more people move together, or will they kind of put them apart?” And if we go to the direction of connecting, I think the results tend to be more humane, you know, and if you strive to foster that connection, I think we’ll at least be on the right path to somewhere.

So I think it’s quite a revelation to understand that. I think it was like maybe two years ago in a party that we did. It was online because of COVID, and I remember that we said something about being the business of connections, instead of saying that our business is tech. And it felt so true, and also a good purpose to have, to have that business, and then if you have connections, everything kind of will sort itself out, because we’re doing things together, that’s another passionate thing to be about.

Lisa: I’m wondering, if there’s a question to both of you, like, when, for you, was the first thought that we could do this in another way? We could work in another way, or we could build an organization in another way?

Sofia: I think for me, it was at Blip, the previous company we worked on. We weren’t small. I mean, we started with two people and three, then five, then 10, and there was no need for people to have been managers, to manage other people. So we were just relying on the connection that we have with each other, the relationship that we build, and the trust that comes with the consistent relationship that you have, or asking something, and then that person agreeing with you, either the date or the delivery, and then that happening, and then you have this consistency, and then why would you need someone to kind of check if that is happening? Because you could check with the person that you just spoke to.

Luís: For me, I had an experience while I was in university that I think shaped me a lot, because I was part of an NGO, where hiring and firing was not an option. So actually, anyone that wanted could join the organization, and anyone could leave whenever they want or not leave. I think it connects with what you’re mentioning on connections, you then understood it was, what is the relationship you want to have with these people, you’re going to work with them. So are you just, what are you going to do about it?

And it kind of showed me that motivation is a lot of different things for everyone, and that it’s when, only when you connect, you are able to understand what is motivating that specific person to what they’re doing. And sometimes can be purpose. Sometimes can be just, I need to have friends. Sometimes can be I want to be busy. I want to try things out. I don’t know what to do with my life. So all those things can be source of motivation.

And I what I saw after that, after being in that NGO, is that companies don’t think of it most of the times, right? It’s like they rather think or not, “You do the work, I pay you for the work” than anything else, mostly in life. And it just felt wrong. I never want to work in a place like that, that it is a transactional perspective. I want to work in a place where all these things that I’ve learned that feel so right keep on being a part of my day to day.

Lisa: Yeah, I resonate with that, and I really liked our conversation last night. It sort of strikes me listening to you both talking that some of the principles that have shaped Mindera and your collaborations together have been sort of challenging things that don’t feel right or don’t make sense. Like, why would I tell people what to do? That doesn’t make any sense, and sort of going with that hunch almost, and seeing what else is possible.

Sofia: Yeah, and I’ve seen, in the circuit that we have been, we’ve seen a lot of startups growing, and they want to have a structure that they can follow. So I’ll have the CEO, the CFO, and CTO when they normally think, if we are a startup and want to get investment, we need to have this structure which all the companies have, and it’s almost like a grid that they put underneath their company, and then they will put everything there. It has to fit on that grid.

I suppose, while we were not trying to get any investment, or we’re not trying to get big, we’re not trying to kind of repeat what is being done elsewhere. I think we were just doing our thing, just trying to make things happen in a way that felt good for us. I think that was one of the things that José, when he founded Blip, he said, “I want to create a company where I would love to go to work every day” that was kind of his phrase that he had, and that’s just as simple as that, “I would feel good coming here.” And of course, when you do something like that, maybe other people also feel good coming into that space, into that environment.

Luís: And I was thinking, for instance, of beginning of Mindera, even though I was not here, we were talking a lot through that time. And I remember you saying that it was not clear what the direction was going to be. It was more clear the things that we wanted to move away from, right? So it was a lot of that, also being able to have that openness to “We don’t know what we don’t know. So let’s try it out.”

That shaped up a lot what Mindera became instead of “Oh no, now we know what self-management is, and we’re going to do this and that. And this is the way it’s been done.” We actually went to Morningstar, and I think Morningstar for both of us, we visited Morningstar some years ago, 2014, and I think it was a big reveal on “Okay, there’s a lot of things we can do, but still we need to find our way of doing this, and we don’t know what our way is going to be. We need to get people together to experiment, to learn from those experiments, and then we will shape up.”

Sofia: Because even in Morningstar, I mean, we were so inspired. When we got there and coming back, was like, “Oh, this is amazing. This is fantastic.” But we also knew, we are not this kind of office. It’s not very like structure, a bit, maybe too much structure, maybe not so much as autocracy, but it’s still, they have a lot of things written. That’s what the one thing that we noticed like, we don’t have anything written, and maybe we should have something written, I don’t know, but we were more like relaxed and organic about that.

But that was something that was really interesting to understand that we were getting away from some of the things because of our experiences. Performance management was one thing that we wanted to get away from. For example, in that sense, I was trying to figure out, what is performance management trying to achieve? What’s that process trying to achieve? And then deconstruct what it’s trying to achieve. And how can we achieve that in a way that creates connection, that creates trust, that helps people feel better about themselves, about the relationship they have, and to build something together, collaborative, instead of each person on their own kind of purpose and goal.

We kind of deconstructed many of the things, but this was later than the beginning. Beginning was more like, we’re just doing something. And later when we visited companies and we started to see examples, then it started to say, “Okay, we don’t want that. This is interesting. How do we achieve something that is also interesting for us?”

It was very clear from the beginning that each company would have to kind of walk their own path. It’s not something that we especially when we met the guy from Spotify, you know, in that conference, when he said, people call us and email us saying things, “Oh, we did your method, and it’s not working.” And it was like, of course, it’s not working. If this works for Spotify, in the situation we have with the people we have, with the challenges that we have might not work for other companies, or parts of it might work, and other parts might not. So it was also something interesting to understand.

Luís: And sometimes the process of building things is more interesting and creates more connection than just implementing. I’m thinking of, for instance, salaries, right? And the evolution we had on salaries that at some point we had a close group that was deciding on salaries, and we thought, this is just not right. We are creating a power structure. And it’s like this group of people that get together that are more experienced that, of course, as we know we are biased, we are taking a decision, we know it’s the best we can do, but maybe there’s another way.

And by that time, we already knew different ways we could have just say, “Okay, we have seen this company. Let’s implement this one.” But actually, I think more important than that was all the discussions we had. We had open workshops with a lot of people thinking on, what could we do for salaries? Should we go for people setting their own salaries? Should we have something in between? Should be self-proposed? Should we have salary transparency?

So we discussed all those themes, and then people came up with different proposals. We understood the different proposals and tried to merge them, and that became our, now, our process for salaries. But maybe if we just it was a lot of work, and we could say, “Oh, maybe if we just sit there two people, very smart, sitting on a roof, thinking on that process and implementing it, then we could have saved all that time.” But actually, that time was what made our process work, that involvement from everyone.

It’s not so much getting a system and getting into your company. It’s more like, “Okay, we try to always look for algorithms that others are doing so that we can bring ideas, but not in the way of just implementing them, the way that we can discuss them, and then out of consensus, almost like a team consensus, it becomes part of us, and we try it out. And maybe it works. Sometimes doesn’t work. And if it doesn’t work, because we were the ones that created it, we can probably solve the issues and the challenges that come up better, because we know the reasons why this system is a bit like this and not like that.

Because we at that time of salary creation, we researched a lot of companies that were, you know, Teal or self-management, or doing something different. And some would have formulas. Some would have, really a complex calculation. Some would have a listed salary open to everyone. There were different ways. And we kind of analyzed “Okay, this has advantages, but also disadvantages that come with it.” And we figured out, not even picking and choosing, but also creating from scratch something different, but with research behind it as well, with some investigation and models to look at and “These people did this, let’s create something that works for us.”

Lisa: Could you share with listeners what did you end up creating then, or what do you have today in terms of salaries in Mindera?

Luís: So the process right now, it went into different directions, but the most important thing for us was, “Okay, how can we make the process more transparent?” That was one of the pillar things. And the other one is how can we make it more participative, so those were the two things that were on the table. And so what happens nowadays, that we have three main different phases.

We have one first phase, which is a self-proposal moment. And that happens within a year. We have three moments where we do salary reviews. So this is also about making it easier for people throughout the year, to make it more fair depending on the moment that you entered. So we also thought about that, right? And even on a business perspective, it’s actually sometimes easier if you just split it along the year. So that was the first rationale.

So we have three moments per year where we do salary reviews. First step is we have our own tool where people can go in and ask for a salary. So the idea is like, “Okay, you probably had feedback from your team, from your client. You have your self-awareness of how much you have grown, and what are you capable of doing now that you were not capable of doing before.” So that’s the main question that is on the table: “What am I now capable of doing that before I was not?”

We try to avoid the performance thing of, “Okay, I’ve been working so much.” That’s something that is possible at this moment in time, probably because you worked a lot, maybe you grew more. But it’s more focused on competency, not so much on how much you work. So that’s the first step: self-proposal.

For self-proposal, you have information. Apart from the feedback that you get from your team and from the client that you work with, you also have access to the salary range in your location. You can see the distribution of salaries in your location. You can also see those distribution of salaries on your role and where do you fit in there. So that’s the process where you get more transparency, which was something we didn’t have.

You can also see whenever someone makes a proposal, everyone in the organization sees that that proposal was made. You don’t see the value, but you see that that person did a proposal. You can also see for how long they are in Mindera, how many increases they have throughout their life in Mindera. So also to create a little bit of consciousness that this is not something like, “I’m going into a dark room doing this and then expecting that nothing happens.” It’s like to give a bit more conscious of “This is not just a meeting. This is a thing that you are deciding, also for the organization.” You then see what you are doing, that it has impact on the people you work with and the organization as a whole.

So going back, first step self-proposal, this is value. So people write down the gross value that they think that they should be earning. So even this, sometimes, it takes people to understand what gross salary is, and sometimes we need to help people with that. But there’s the educational part.

There also another thing on transparency that people didn’t know a lot in this process, that company normally pays more than the salary for the salary. So when people do their proposal, then there’s the second step. Second step is more or less like peer review. So what we do is that we have a stack from zero to 10, where people with no defined criteria, just try to see “Okay, on this level of competency around me. Where do I see my colleagues fit? Are they under me, over me?” So you make a stack that you can move people up and down. You can do it with different roles. You can do what fits best for you to almost give a snapshot in time of “What is the competency of my team right now?”

It has numbers from zero to 10, the numbers in themselves mean nothing. So for instance, if I have me and Sofia in that list, and we would be both at one or both at 10, it’s exactly the same thing. It just means that Sofia should be earning the same as me. So it’s just relation in between the people that you have there.

So imagine if I would have someone that is two levels below me. It means that that person, in my perspective, should be earning less than me. So everyone does this, for a period of time. So we have two weeks where everyone is involved in this, and then what happens next is the third phase, where a small group of people that already has access to all the salaries just look into the data and try to make sense out of the data.

So not so much on “Oh, does Luis deserve this salary increase or not?” No, they are looking at what the people who work with that person say, and what was their proposal. And most of the times, what happens is that they just get it right. So it’s that easy part, that most of the times, they just get it right.

Of course, that it is an awesome moment as well for people to see that some people don’t have self-awareness because they ask for a proposal that’s clearly not where the team sees them. And it can be both ways. It can be in the sense that someone undervalues themselves. It also happens a lot that people sometimes don’t even make proposals.

So we actually had to implement a feature that if you stay in Mindera for a year, it will automatically add you to the process of comparison, because otherwise, some people are might be so shy or might not be confident enough to actually ask for a raise.

What we see is that this process has helped, in that sense, because we have seen a lot that in other organizations, and sometimes, I think even in Mindera at the beginning, people that are more vocal would probably be more seen for a salary review than with this process. And the idea with this comparable model, and this way, it’s a very good feeling that we have with people working at Mindera right now, is that with the comparable model that we use with the stacks, people feel that there is justice inside. They know what’s happening. They know how the process is. They know what’s going to happen.

For instance, sometimes we have people that get a very good offer from another company, and in a normal company, they would just say, “Yeah, can you match this?” Right? And we have a lot of times people that come to us and say, “I know that we have a different process, and you cannot just match this, but I don’t know what to do, because I understand how we work. I don’t want to be unfair to the people that I work with.” So that feeling is very strong of fairness because of that process.

Sofia: I would say that the process to create that system is also important. Of course, now that Mindera has grown so much, not even half of people here participated in that. But I think at least some of the people that are here have participated in getting together, like in a room with 60 people, we gathered in groups of six to eight people and then created, “What do you think the system of salary should be?” So they proposed several ideas, and then the groups presented to each other what were the ideas.

And then we kind of summarized on a board what were the most common ideas that were being shared. And then we kind of created a funnel of “What are the ideas that are going to pass the test of trial? Let’s try what is safe enough to try right now.” And then we created this first iteration. And then I think maybe 12 to 18 months after we created another session to say, “Is there anything we want to change? What’s going well? What is not going so well?” And then we had some adjustments as well in that part.

So, we created that with the people that were here, which, I think is something that it’s not seen when you are doing the process, but even if the person tries to understand how this was created, I think there is a story behind it that can kind of bring strength and fairness to the process itself, and that you know that it can be changed. Because that’s how it was created, to change the one that we previously had. So it gives you that sense of “This is not something written in stone, it can evolve. You can change if you want to.”

Luís: Yeah, and this process, I think, was another example that I really love, which was around salary transparency, because that’s something we discussed: “Should we have salary transparency?” And we had people that were super passionate saying, “If we are a self-organized company, we must have salary transparency.” There were other people saying, “No, but this is a very personal thing for me. I don’t really would like to have my salary exposed.”

In that sense, we were like, there was no decision to be taken, if you would only see “Okay, we can either go one way or the other.” And I think that’s where, at least thinking of Mindera, I love working in an environment where things can be tried out and be done in different ways. Because what we thought is, “Why do we need to have a one-size-fits-all? Why don’t we have a group of people that want to be part of the salary transparency group?”

So it’s as simple as that sometimes that you can actually try things out with different approaches. It doesn’t need to be the thing of equality, right? You don’t need to have the same thing for everyone. Sometimes we give the example of chairs, right? We don’t have the same chair in every office, of course, that sometimes on a cost basis, if you always buy the same chair, it actually might reduce a little bit the cost.

But if you are more focused on what people need, do you think that we have 400 people in this office? Do you think what’s the chance that everyone wants to work exactly with the same chair? So actually, we have different chairs because of different moments in life at Mindera, and we have people that still love to work with the first chairs that actually are the cheapest ones, and there are other people that say, “Oh no, I don’t like that chair. It’s too tall, and I don’t feel comfortable.”

So it’s this thing of moving away from the one-size-fits-all and trying to be able to experiment, even that visual thing of “We can do things differently.” It does have an impact on you, being able to think that you can change things.

Sofia: And the fact that, what you said about the salaries, that if people don’t want to self-propose, because the system has that opportunity, but it’s not closed off to the people that don’t feel comfortable. It’s inclusive. You can do that, and most people do, but it also includes people that don’t feel comfortable doing that part of the process. So we have a system that kind of includes people even if they don’t want to do that part of the process. And I think that’s quite good. We kind of created something that serves a lot of personalities.

Lisa: I think that seems to be like a key principle in the Mindera culture, also this idea of, well, two things really like listening to you both there. It’s like one, letting people decide, like involving people in something and not getting stuck in “It has to be A or B,” but sort of exploring, “Well, is there a C?” And the second one, being like individuality and recognizing that everyone is different, and it’s not about kind of good or bad, but more sort of celebrating the individuality and different people’s needs and trying to be as inclusive as possible with those.

Luís: Yes, something that we can tell another story about that individuality, which is, some people really like to go to the snow and do snowboarding or ski. And they really wanted to form more people at Mindera to be able to experience that activity. So they said, “Okay, why don’t we create, like, a trip that we can go to the snow and everyone can try it out, we can pay for classes and things like that.” So they created the first Mindera trip that we have.

And then I remember maybe three years from that point we were having a discussion, and people were really fired up about “We have to go to the snow, because this is, like, Mindera tradition.” And some people said, “Yeah, but I don’t like snow. That’s something that I don’t really appreciate. So I’m really happy that we were going to be together, but the activity itself is not going to be interesting for me, so I’m not going to go.”

And people saying, “Why don’t you do something different? Each year we’ll have a different trip. Last year was snow. We can do a surfing trip, for example.” And I think we were struggling to understand that we can do all of them, in the same year with different people, because we were more than 100 by that time.

And we were asking people, “Okay, so when you go to the snow trip, how many people do you actually create a connection and talk with longer than five minutes?” And people said, “Yeah, like 20 people.” So we don’t really have to go all together 150 people to one place to be together, because actually, people will gather themselves in smaller groups, right?

So if those smaller groups create different trips, they will still be together with some people, which they will still be if we all went together, but to the places where they want to go. So we kind of created the different trips at different times of the year, because snow and sun are not at the same time. But then that year, some people could go to the snow and some people could go to the surfing trip. They could even go to both if they paid one of the trips, just to be fair to everyone. And then the following year, I think we created three trips, different ones. The other one was an adventure trip with climbing trees. Everyone was more happy, I think.

Sofia: I was thinking that it kind of relates with the decisions that we have taken also in the offices. It was not just solely on that, but I think that is also quite interesting. So instead of, at some point, we were getting bigger and bigger, and we could go for the traditional “Okay, so we need to find a bigger office.”

But in the end, what we decided was we are in a building that has several offices, but we couldn’t have one that was adjacent to everyone to keep on growing. So we decided, “Why don’t we start with maybe we can have a smaller office that is close by?”

And actually it gave the perspective for people that wanted to be in a more quieter room. Of course, there are people that love to be in a very loud environment and like to get into the office and say hello to everyone and go around, but some other people might maybe rather be in their own corner in a smaller pace office. So why don’t we try this?

And then, right now, we are at the stage that we have 15 different offices, and what tends to happen is that when a team goes into an office, they completely change it, they mold it to them. And I think it’s that level of individuality that is created because of that, that also helps a lot.

Luís: And the smaller offices actually created better connection, I think, for people. You just see the same faces, you know their names, all of them, because they’re like 20-25 people in a room. And the flexibility of changing the place where the tables are, this was thought out in advance, like you have to be able to move the tables, you have to be able to move the chairs around, and to pick other chairs from other offices if you want to move things around.

And I think it worked really well because all each office has a kitchen area and a sitting area and a meeting room. Normally, they will have those elements, so they are like a self-sufficient, self-contained, kind of unit. But we also have a bigger office with a balcony where people can gather in a larger number, and that’s where we make the parties and the gatherings that are more festive. So it worked out really well.

And we’ve experienced being in an office where we have 150-200 people in one floor, you can see all of them from one place to the other. And maybe it’s only for introverts, but for me, it felt overwhelming sometimes. And even for a different type of people, they would say that it’s sometimes a bit loud. Even if you love to be with people, sometimes you want to have a more quiet place, space to kind of work and focus a bit on what you’re doing.

Lisa: I think it’s interesting also from a perspective of, Mindera has been growing a lot and, I think faster than you expected, also, and the office, I’ve had a bit of a tour this morning, and it seems like quite a good representation, also, of how you have solved some of the challenges of growing as a company.

People ask me a lot, “How do you scale your culture as you grow? How do you not lose the things that made your culture special?” And having these smaller offices, having 15 smaller offices, each with their own kitchen and things like that, it also strikes me that it’s much easier to be accountable and to have ownership of the space, and also your team culture when it’s smaller, because as you were saying to me this morning, Luís, you can have more of a sense of like, if you need to solve a problem, you can just stand up and talk to people, instead of it becoming this sort of, almost anonymous, much larger, almost like corporate entity. You have these units where you can really have strong relationships.

Luís: Yeah, I think it’s like a culture of connection. Goes back to what you said in the beginning. It’s built in a way that it fosters connection. It kind of compels people to connect with others. Because it’s a small group.

And I get that that people think, “Oh, we’re gonna lose something.” We have that also when we were growing and people, especially the ones that started with Mindera early on, they had fear of losing they were seeing as Mindera was losing things. We lost some things. I’m not sure if I feel like that was a bad thing. I mean, I feel it was transformative. We were transforming. We were evolving.

Companies are the result of the relationships of the people that are there, but also from the people that have left and joined. And it’s always changing, but it feels like when people are talking more about losing things, they’re holding on to a system that works at that point. I’m not sure if they are being able to look at the opportunities of what the system can be.

And I think as long as it’s a culture of connection, that’s why we are so worried about remote work, because how can we have the culture of connection even in remote setting? But I think there were things that we did in the beginning that we no longer did when we were 100, but we were still looking for the connection and the relationships of people and the trust, and that was like a guiding kind of light, I suppose. And I think things change and they’re supposed to change, it’s worrying when they are too static.

Sofia: Yeah, culture-wise, I would say it will be a failure on what we were trying to build if it couldn’t change, because that means that people were just trying to copy what was being done, instead of joining Mindera and because of that, changing things. If actually we see that, “No, we still do exactly the same things,” that would not be the direction we wanted.

But there are things that are there as a basis, and we keep on doing. And I think this idea of giving our team their own small office where they create their own culture, that’s a good thing. It’s like, I think of that as a good thing. Of course, you need to be prepared to and happy that they do it. If you are anxious and “Oh, what are they doing? Are they going in the right direction?” If you have all those fears, then you are going to make decisions based on fear.

And that’s where normally rules start to happen, is when you take decisions based on fear, instead of embracing and guiding, helping, making questions. I think our job, at least for me and Sofia, for all these years, has been making questions like just being curious about things, helping them with the questions that they maybe forgot to ask themselves because we went through those situations. But not giving answers. When you start giving answers, you’re probably creating more barriers for what they are trying to do than helping them solve what they need to solve.

Sofia: And I think it was about more like removing things. From time to time, we have always something that returns to us, which is people asking for, “Oh, we should have, like, an onboarding process and an onboarding kit. And we should have, maybe, now that we are bigger, we should have an evaluation system.”

This comes back because people come from other organizations, they have seen this work more or less for them, and they will ask for it, and then that’s when the questions are really helpful, like, “What are we trying to achieve? What do we want? What was the result that we are expecting?” And then trying to figure out if there’s still a way to get a close result, a result that is very close to what people are expecting, not exactly the process, but what are we trying to achieve, but through a way that still connects, still builds trust.

And I think if we can follow that path, we would be in a good position. If we moved from this office to an office where 1000 people could see each other, then we’ll have to question, “Okay, what are we trying to achieve with that? Is it more closeness or not? Are we actually achieving that by having everyone together in a room, or are we actually creating that feeling that this is overwhelming? I don’t know these people by their names and it kind of feels awkward sometimes in an environment like that.”

Lisa: Yeah, you’ve kind of touched on a couple of times, your dislike of performance management and classic evaluation systems. What have you learned and developed at Mindera in terms of, personal development culture? How do people develop and grow here? And what have you learned?

Sofia: I think what we kind of question was, “Okay, what is performance management trying to achieve? What are the main goals?” And the experience that we had in the past really helped shape what were those goals. There’s value in observing how those systems were implemented to understand what are we trying to achieve, or at least, what is the dream there, although it might not be achievable in that way.

But it was the connection with, “How am I doing right now? What people kind of expect of me, and is that expectation being met or not? How is it going from the perspective of others, and also from my perspective, how do I feel about what I’m doing?”

Then you would have that salary question, which I think it’s always something that happens. And then, “What is your path of development? What are you going to do next?” And for us, the systems that we were seeing in other corporations, again, were like a cookie cutter that would always cut in the same shape. And we wanted individuality, like we talked about.

And so how can this system first be unique to everyone and be kind of fit for the uniqueness of every individual, and also, how can it be fair or fairer? Because fairness is different for everyone, and how can people know how they are doing?

And I think what we created was something that kind of organizes those three areas in very different processes so they’re not attached to each other. Because, again, we believe that once you attach development or even the opinion of others of you with money, then of course, people want to not hurt their colleagues that they love and they’re gonna say good things about them. Will that help them grow? Probably not, but it will help them get the objective of money, which influences behaviors in people in this way.

So we wanted to separate, first, the three aspects of it, and then how we work on each one of them, right? And the salary, the money part and the salary, I think we explained before. Adding to that, we also have the bonus that is the same amount for everyone, except if you are here for less than 12 months, then it’s proportional to the months that you have been but it’s the same for everyone. It’s not a percentage, it’s not the same percentage, it’s exactly the same value in a month.

So that is interesting in a way, that we are collaborating for the same thing. The differentiation in capacity is defined by salary, not by bonus. So that kind of removes the individuality or performance that “I have to be better than everyone else.” I think it bundles people in a group: “We are going to do this together, because we can achieve something that it’s equal for everyone. It’s going to be our reward.”

And then the feedback, I think it’s probably more difficult, the first one seems more difficult, but we kind of solve the salary thing in a way that we feel more comfortable than before. The feedback and the development, I think, are really difficult. It’s very challenging because feedback is about you, growing as a person. Have self-awareness. This is difficult for everyone. It’s like accepting ourselves as we are, instead of as we wish we were. It’s a process. It sometimes takes longer for some people. It’s very short for others. But it’s an evolving process throughout your life. But it’s hard.

How we do it is we create moments of learning, of what feedback is, what feedback means, what feedback is helpful, what feedback is less helpful, where should our conversation should go, and mainly the part that it’s most difficult to learn is whatever you say to someone, they’re not obliged to actually do what you said. It’s their choice. You are handing a gift, and that’s it. It stays there. That person does whatever they want with it, and that is difficult to accept, but it’s also a growing part of the person that is providing the feedback.

And then the other part of development, because we don’t have a career ladder, also because, some companies would say these kind of roles need to grow like this, because it’s helpful for the company, but would is it helpful for the individual? Is that what they want to do when they leave the company, for example, will that growth be meaningful for the career they want to have throughout their life?

So instead of having a system where you’re just helping the company build whatever structure they want in terms of roles and capacities, it has to be a two-way conversation: “Yes, we need these kind of roles for the kind of work that the company does. But is this interesting for you, or is it something different that you want?”

And sometimes even to share with people what we mean and how far we are willing to go, it’s like, imagine that you want to be a culinary chef. Mindera would pay for your training if you want to do be a culinary chef afterwards. We pay for your training as long as you are here, because we want you to be the best version of yourself. We want you to be happy, even if culinary training is not something that we do.

We are on this journey. And while we are on this journey together, we are going to exchange things between each other, and that will be the most enriching experience for both sides.

Luís: Going back on the feedback, and maybe connecting with some other things that we talked about, it’s again, also one thing that we don’t try to make just one way of doing things. For us and for me and Sofia along this time, making questions is a lot of things, and sometimes it’s quite hard to give feedback, right? And people tend to complain around, but sometimes they don’t actually talk directly to the person.

So I’d say the biggest work that we have been doing throughout these years is, “But have you told them exactly what you were just saying to me, or what are you expecting me to do with that information?” And so that’s one of the things, but it can be so different.

We have had teams that have monthly meetings, deep down meetings of feedback, with a high maturity level, because they reach that, they are able to do that. I’m pretty sure that a lot of companies would see that and say, “It’s working great for this company. Let’s roll it out for everyone.” And that would be a disaster, because it was only possible because that team reached that maturity level. In other teams, it would just be digging a very big hole for them.

So it’s about understanding that company can go in very different velocity. It can have many different ways. And it’s just about understanding and supporting what the teams are trying to do.

Of course, we don’t think that with self-organization, you solve everything, not even close. We have loads of problems, loads of people that, in some moments, are super unhappy about what is happening, that they feel that it’s unfair, that they are not able to give feedback, all those things.

What we decided from early on is that we’d rather have these problems. We know they are there. It’s not going to solve them. We’re going to do our best to solve them. It’s not going to completely go away. We just rather have this than have the people competing against each other, and suffering because they have someone telling them what to do or not to do. So we just rather have this problem. I think this was very clear for us from the beginning.

Sofia: Exactly those kind of challenges. When you go into a path or a route, you kind of have to decide, “Okay, this will give us these pains, and this will give us other pains.” So which pains are you willing to accept for the reward of those different paths? And I think, yeah, that was the path that we chose. And it’s so rewarding. People have so much complexity and things to add to each other and to the work that they do, and with this type of autonomy and relationships that people develop.

I don’t know, sometimes I feel emotional about what people can achieve and how people can relate to each other, both in projects work and also in relationships that they have and that pervades to their family life as well and friend life outside Mindera. The growth that they have internally and how they change, how we see people change throughout the years and how we change ourselves throughout this journey. And it’s painful, but it’s so rewarding. It’s much better than anything that I imagine many years ago.

Luís: I remember one moment that was very hard to move on from, because we were doing a session about self-organization to external people, and we just said, “Okay, we’re gonna have people in this session, and it would be nice to have some Minderas to just be able for Q&A so whenever people want to ask about Mindera and understand…” Because sometimes, you know, you have people that talk a lot about this, like me and Sofia, that we are very passionate. But what about someone that just works here?

And one of the questions that was made (we were not there, then they shared after) was “Okay, how different was it for you when you joined Mindera?” And there were like, two or three people that answered, it was not only a mentally different thing, it was actually physically because “I was losing air in my last company.” They were suffering from the anxiety, and they said, “Now it’s like I’m a different person. I completely changed.”

And that we never intended that, right? It’s just a consequence of what we just believe that is just right. But that moment was, for me, it touched me. So it can have that kind of impact.

Sofia: We spend, like, most of our life at work, and it needs to be a good place to be. I think it really needs, it’s not like, just a wishful thinking, “Oh, it’s nice to have that.” No, I think it really needs, like, I think it’s a human basic need to have a place where you can feel yourself, where you can be yourself, where you can feel the feelings that are normal for human beings, to feel all of them. And I think it’s really needed like sleeping, like eating, like having balance in other areas of your life, it really needs to happen.

Lisa: I’m wondering what both of you have learned from a personal perspective, in terms of, you know, you’ve both started and participated in several different ventures exploring self-organization and some of these things we’ve been talking about to different degrees. What has it been like for each of you on a personal level?

Sofia: For me, it’s been like I am a different person from 12 years ago. I had the opportunity for people to tell me what they were seeing when they looked at me, that I think wouldn’t be possible to have if we didn’t have this kind of freedom of people speaking their truth. So it was very revealing to understand how I was being seen, how I thought I was being seen, and how that changed me throughout the years.

I feel more connected with myself and the people around me. I made some decisions that were really important, like with my kids and how I would relate to them, in terms of the relationship that I want to build with them. I have two kids, one is 12 and one is 4, actually when it’s 13. I just did that last week.

And I think it completely changed. It was a struggle. But looking back, it would be so much more challenging to continue to be as I was before, to continue in that route, because it really gives you emotional freedom to feel things that you are feeling, and to search for feelings that you want to feel as well in situations, and where do you want to be and what do you want to connect with. I think it gives you that conscious choice of actually choosing the life that you want, instead of just being a passenger of a boat that is passing by.

Luís: I think to me, it’s quite interesting, because I think most of the things that I felt like while going through this journey, they connect a lot with what I believe in. But I’m pretty sure that if by chance I went into a traditional organization, I would probably be on the corporate ladder right now, and that’s sometimes amazing for me. I think that I would be a manager at this point, and I’ll probably even think that that’s the only way that could be done.

And that sometimes freaks me out, because it’s almost like it’s sometimes not you, it’s the context that you’re exposed to. And even though, for me, it’s like, this feels natural, it’s not something I have to say, “Oh, I had to change completely.” No, it felt natural to me, but at the same time, I knew that only the exposure made it possible.

There is still one thing that I almost need to sometimes even remind myself, I think one thing that will probably would be different to me, on the way I’m thinking is like, if there is a problem to solve, I think still sometimes I need to remind myself, “You know, probably if you bring this to everyone, you’ll have better answers than if you gather two or three people that you think are very knowledgeable about this and will be able to solve this.”

So it’s almost like something that I still know, I have had the experiences to tell me that, but my default is still going to one or two people that I think will help me make the best decision, instead of taking it to the power of a crowd that I already know works so well.

I think there are things that will probably still grow. And that’s something that we talk a lot about, that if you want the organization to change, you need to be ready yourself to change, to be able to see your flaws and what’s your path. It’s not looking at it as, “Oh, this is who I am.” No, it’s like on the organization, you are on the stepping stone of what’s the next best version of yourself.

And I think that all these things, all these that we have talked about, how Mindera has changed throughout time, I think it sometimes, even unconsciously, we have that perspective on me, right? That I also want to try things out on myself. I also want to experiment. Why should I make a decision that it’s full stop gonna change my life? No, let’s do a small experiment. Let’s talk with this person. Let’s do this like this, and then we’ll see. I think it does have that impact, and it does circle around.

Sofia: The change for me, I mean, the challenge for me is that I’m a fixer. I tend to fix things. I tend to think as well that I am the responsible one for fixing things, or just wanting to help someone fixing whatever they’re having challenge with. And I have to hold back, because I’m not creating enough space for people to reach their own thing.

And sometimes I would have an idea, but just wait for other ideas to come and then maybe share, or maybe not, depending on how it goes, instead of before, I would be like, “Yes, I’m already on the phone with that person, and it’s already been done.” I’m that kind of person.

And I would say that these last few years, have been of also understanding how human brain works, and also kind of reflecting back on how my human brain is working, and what are the things that I go to automatically, and some of those things should have a pause before and then consciously make that decision of doing it or not.

And we just gather more tools while we are researching these things and talking to people and creating those moments and those situations of learning at Mindera and changing. We also reflect back to “Mindera can change, and so can I.” That’s the imprint, that’s the only thing that we have certain is that we are going to change.

And I’ve read a few years ago something that stuck with me, which is we are very willing to accept that we have changed, like, “Oh, 10 years ago, yes, I was completely different person,” but we are very reluctant to accept that in 10 years, we’re going to be a very different person. It’s almost like we want the future us to be exactly as we are now.

Because, aren’t we perfect? But we can recognize completely that we were a different person before. I think striving to recognize that we are going to be different people in 10 years, I think it makes us more willing to change now, because that’s going to happen, but you can do it more consciously and more in the direction that you think it’s going to help you more to develop and connect with others.

Lisa: What would you say to people listening to this who are exploring self-organization themselves, or who are interested in developing more human, more decentralized ways of working? What have you learned in your years of experimenting with this? What wisdom would you share? What mistakes have you made that people could maybe avoid?

Sofia: So much! But the first thing that comes to mind is notice how your organization and yourself deals with mistakes, because mistakes are human, right. We all make mistakes, and the way we react to them shapes a lot of behaviors. It shapes how willing are you to try new things? That’s key for this kind of thing.

And for people to change, they need to kind of accept themselves as this full being of fantastic complex things that sometimes we make mistakes and sometimes we are flawed in some way, but we have wonderful things as well. And I think how we deal with mistakes has been something that really, really shapes experiences of people.

I once interviewed someone that said that they made a mistake three years ago in their company, and they are constantly reminded of “Don’t do that mistake again.” It was not just in that moment. It was a month after that, six months after that, a year after that, and every year after that, and that way, this person is not free to kind of think in different ways of doing things. They are constantly afraid of creating that mistake or something different and how they will be seen and how the people around will react.

So I’ll say the first thing, just look at how you deal with mistakes. Make it something that can be shareable, that we can talk about. We can get creative. We can get together. We can work together on that. We can all learn from that mistake, and we can all create innovative ideas to overcome some of them, but not all of them. And that’s not the purpose. It’s not the goal.

Luís: I would say if you are thinking on exploring, going into self-organization, I think one very important thing is that the team that you are working with is doing that with you. You’re not doing that alone. It’s going to be a journey.

Sometimes we have these moments of, “Oh, we are not a self-organized company. We are doing this. How come are we doing this? And we are saying we are self-organized.” It’s okay. It’s a process. It took us time to be less radical and to look at it as, “Yeah, we are going on that direction.”

What actually means to be self-organized, that it can be a lot of different things. And I think what helped us a lot was going into different organizations to listen to stories and create our own story, right? Instead of looking for models, actually looking to stories, understanding how that happened.

And sometimes what we were mentioning, but sometimes it’s looking at, “Yeah, you are a self-organization, but we don’t like that. That’s not what we want to do. I understand. It’s okay, but we want to do it a different way, and that’s okay.” I think that process, and as we mentioned today, more than what we implement is how you implement it. I think that’s going to be so much more important in this process.

I think what also happens a lot in the stories perspective is to get reassurance, to also listen, that we are not the only ones going through tough times, and that it’s going to happen. It’s part of the process. There are moments where you think, “Why are we giving all this autonomy, and then people make this dumb decision?” Or “I make this dumb decision,” and that’s part of the process of learning, of going through.

Sometimes I even think there’s this moment of almost like adolescence, right? That people rebel, almost like, “Oh, I can do what I want. I can stay at home and sleep. Let me try that one day.” It’s not sustainable. It’s not it solves itself. People give feedback. It tends to happen.

I think that’s finding almost like a support group, also outside that can help you understand that it is going to go through different phases, and it’s more about how you deal with them than anything else.

And what you mentioned about failure, and also, not only failure of a task that you had to do, and that failed, but also that sometimes you make decisions as an organization that fail. I remember once we decided, “Oh, let’s stop doing cultural interviews. We normally do culture interviews. Maybe we can not do them, because the technical part, they already do this. So maybe we can stop it.”

And it was something that everyone felt like, “Oh, so now we don’t care about culture anymore? What are we trying to do? Are we just trying to grow here? So we’re not that kind of company that looks for relationships.”

So sometimes we make decisions in the wrong way, not involving people in the right way. We get too much in our heads and think that we are the owner of that little kingdom where we normally work in and we forget to involve people. That happens a lot in Mindera. Someone tends to make a decision because we have the freedom to do it, because we have the time to do it, and sometimes we overstep on people that are actually impacted by that decision.

But the good thing is that at least here we created the place where people will talk about it. If they think that they were stepped on, they would say, “Hey, wait, I think, why did you make that decision? Why was I not involved?” And I think being open for that, if you are going on a journey for self-organization, I think it will help you a lot to already have that in mind.

Sofia: And here’s something that it’s never a mistake is to listen to people. I think the mistake would be to be afraid of listening to people because of what they would say. But this is just a relationship, like any other relationship we have. We talk. There are some words being said, sometimes we feel sorry for the things that we said, but we apologize, and then we go to a common ground.

I think it’s more how we solve our conflicts that tells us something about the relationship that we are creating, than actually avoiding those conflicts. But I think listening is always something that I feel that people fear. Even when talking to people in organizations, “Why don’t we open this discussion and see what people want?” And people were like, “Oh, what if they want this, and we cannot provide? What if they want something that it’s not really legal to do?”

Well, we can share that. We can share our opinions as well. And that this is, like, a common mistake, I think, is people think that when “Oh, we are ready to listen,” but “You are not going to be part of the conversation. I was just going to listen, but we will not be able to talk.” I think there is that fear.

But this is going to be a conversation. People are going to talk, we are going to respond, and it’s going to be a back and forward, and we could solve anything that would come to us with talking, even if it’s not in the first time, in first session, like, have more sessions because we need it. That’s normal as well.

But I think listening to people is always worth it. Even if you have to say something like, “We thought about that, but it’s not exactly legal. Our lawyers have advised us that it’s not something that we should do because there is this risk. Of course, we could go with that and take the risk. But how do we feel about that? We feel unsure to take it.”

And people will understand. Everyone has concerns, everyone has fears, everyone regardless of the position where we are, we’re still people. Even, there’s something in the news, and these are just people. Even the famous people, they’re just people, and they have the same concerns and fears and desires as everyone else.

And sometimes we forget that the roles do not transform people into lizards or extraterrestrial beings with different characteristics. We have still a very complex brain. We still have all this range of feelings, and we just need to talk about them. So I think the listening is so key. I don’t think we can ever overdo it. I’m not sure if we have ever achieved that “over listening.”

I don’t think anyone’s ever said “I feel too heard.” This is too much. Because that person can also control how much they say.

And about mistakes, we’ve done a few or more than a few. We’ve done a lot. But I think that willingness to learn with that, and their willingness to say, “Yeah, let’s try it. Maybe we fail. Okay, we failed. And then, what are we going to do now? Let’s find a solution.”

But not in the way of, “Oh, let’s not do that again.” Not being afraid of repeating mistakes because they’re not really exactly the same. They could be slightly different, but still mistakes.

For example, we are a big organization, so we made a mistake. We didn’t share enough so that other person might make the same mistake again. Or like I said before, like we have repeated questions, people saying, “Oh, why don’t we have this process? Well, we should have a career ladder, because I want the career ladder.”

Yeah, that’s fine. We can create a career ladder together, but it’s going to be for you. You don’t have to make people adopt that career ladder. You can share that. And whoever wants to adopt it adopts, but that’s not something that we want to impose on everyone, because of the individuality, so having space for that conversation as well.

Lisa: What are your hopes for the future? What’s next for you both? It seems like you’re both such creative, kind of serial, entrepreneurial types. What’s your next kind of learning adventure, do you think?

Sofia: I keep thinking about, how can we just make this situation better? I mean, I don’t mean just my life exactly. I mean, overall, like in the country, in the city. I mean, if you go further in the world, because work is such an important part of life. How can this evolve to something that is less archaic than a system that some people are told what to do and other people tell others what to do?

There’s this such great disconnection of being human and being in a work system, and it’s a bit puzzling, because we’ve tried a few things, like having a group of people that feel like-minded and want the same things. But even that is a bit frustrating sometimes, because people put up all these blocks and all these fears and all these beliefs that they have that this is not going to work. And so it’s kind of a topical conversations that people have, so nothing actionable.

Then I think about education, and we should teach kids at least that there is another way of doing it, to have a representation model of what it can look like that. It’s not that system of power and control. And the educational system is also a bit backwards, I suppose, old fashioned, archaic, as I was saying before.

And I keep thinking also going back to how the human brain thinks, and how do we make decisions of going one way or the other? And I’m still kind of struggling with thoughts of what will have the most impact, but at the same time, I’m thinking, you don’t have to have a fantastic, great impact. You can, just like I believe, many years ago, influence the people around you and the community that you have, the circle that you interact with, and that is your biggest gift to the world, just to change the relationship to what you have with the closest people that you have around you.

So going back and forward with that, I’m still struggling to understand what is going to be the next thing to do in relation to that will of changing how our work relates to humans. So I don’t think I have an answer, but I know the direction. I know this way is so rewarding, and I see all the people also having that experience of being rewarded, not just in themselves, but with the relationship they have with other people that it feels right.

It feels like this is so freeing. You kind of let go of some of the fears you have and some of the constrictions that you have, so it feels like this is the way to go. We just need to understand what is the next step. But the further along direction, it’s there.

Luís: Yeah, if I look back maybe five years ago, when we already had tons of conversations around this, and we start thinking, “Okay, I think this is the thing” and for me, I know that I’m super enthusiastic, so I’ll be able to convince people that this is the thing and that they want to change their organization.

And the thing is, it has been proven wrong over and over again. Not many people are ready to change. Well, a lot of people think it’s a very good thing, “Not in my yard. If my neighbor has that, I would brag about it, but not me.”

So there are two things that I have in mind that I think they are still a dream in my head. Because of that, more and more I think about creating an ecosystem of organizations that support each other. And I think starting organizations in this way is probably easier than transforming an organization that started with a different perspective.

So I think we, or at least me, being with the knowledge of how this works, can bring that story that we were talking about that can help. If I find individuals along the way that have the idea of doing it, I can give the support for that to happen, creating that ecosystem.

And then the other thing that I think I would like to find a way to be more clear is that I think right now, a lot of people are making more conscious decisions, for instance, when buying products on sustainability, but not so much on working conditions. We still like our Amazon delivery on the next day, but we know how it is to work at Amazon.

So I think one thing that would be awesome, and I want to work on in my life, is, how can we maybe create more conscious decisions on where we spend our money, thinking on, “How well do people working there? How are the conditions in those companies?” For me, at least right now, when I want to buy clothing, I’m always thinking, “Can I buy Patagonia?”

I think this is going to impact people directly, not only with what I’m doing, but also because of supporting those organizations. So I think that can be something. I think it has been having an impact on sustainability that more and more people are doing that shift. What could be the shift if we do that, if we as consumers, start only buying things from companies that are more conscious of what kind of regulations they have for people to work on? So I think that would be the next step for me.

Lisa: Is there anything that you wanted to say, that you haven’t said, that you think would be good for people to know, or that feels clear to you right now?

Sofia: It almost feels like we haven’t reached, you know. What we were talking last night about the imbalance that we have. It’s not enough for people to think of a shift as a reality. And I think the pandemic really helped for people to understand that they were not very happy in the office. For some people, it might be more clear why they were not happy. For others, it might be a bit confusing, like, “What exactly was it?”

And they can’t put a finger on it, but I think when people went home, I mean, for most of them, not all, it was more of a safe place than they were used to. I think they have that feeling, but those people are not the ones making the decision to create those safe places.

But I think having the knowledge that it can be possible, I hope that that could be a change in the future, that could change the future in some way. And that’s why we’re talking about education and kids. Maybe they are the ones that are going to change.

Because we normally say that younger people want different things of the workplace. There are good studies about that, and “What are these young people wanting from the workplace?” and we’re doing all kinds of stuff, providing either perks or something like that, or a more flexible office or hours. And we think that is the solution.

I think that’s an evolution of what we have. I think we used to have a workforce that was thinking of the responsibility and the loyalty of being in one place, and it was a very unbalanced relationship between the person that worked and the company. And this created a shift that creates more balance.

I’m not sure it’s going to be the solution to have a safer place, but I’ve seen a lot of discussions around that, especially on diversity and inclusion. I think inclusion is something that could help more this theme of having a safe place and having a place that is more in line with what the human needs are.

So I’m hoping that can also bring the conversation to a level where people would need to make a decision of creating more safe working environments. But again, it goes back to “I need to change.” The company, or the person that owns the company needs to change.

But I’ve also seen a lot of reactions from people saying, “Oh, these people feel entitled. They don’t want to work here.” So it’s that narrative is “Others need to change.” And for this change to happen, it needs to be the self. It needs to be like an awareness and acceptance that “I need to be the change,” and that’s tough for humans to do. Humans don’t want to change. They resist.

But it’s so freeing and so rewarding, I would say that it is completely worth it. If you knew me 15 years ago, you probably wouldn’t say that I was going to be doing this and that I was feeling like I was a calmer person, and that I was more self-aware. I don’t think I imagined, like I said before, in 10 years, I’m going to be a very different person.

But I always wanted to go against the tide. I suppose I did a strike once when I was 12 in a class because I didn’t agree with something the teacher said that we needed to do. So there was some kind of rebellion in me.

But I think we need to understand that this is what it’s needed for everyone. I think, even if it has more structure, even if it’s different, like we said, the companies aren’t exactly the same, but they need to be safe. They need to be safe for everyone. And I’m not talking about working accidents. They need to be safe for humans, and they’re just not. If corporations, some of them had a label, it would say “Not safe for humans,” written on the back of the packaging.

And I think this conversation probably needs to go to political levels, changing legislation, because I’ve seen a study that climate change, and the efforts to kind of make it a livable planet, need to be political. And the changes that we do in our houses, which are fantastic, if they are not enough, the politics need to change, and that’s the way to change.

So I’m not going to apply for any office. But to be honest, sometimes I feel a bit disheartened, but at the same time, I feel this is the only way. There is no other way in terms of safeness for humans. Of course, there’s many ways to create safe environments for people, there’s hundreds of ways to do that, and I just hope that we have enough momentum to actually do that.

Luís: Yeah, I think you touched one thing that is crucial here, which is, it’s not so much about what framework are you going to adopt, or is it really important to label it self-organization? It’s more “How do you actually create a humane place for people to work in?” And then the structures will come next. Don’t focus as much on the structures. Focus more on the people around creating a place where people like to go and work, enjoy it, and then sometimes suffer a bit with it as well. It’s part of being human to go through all the array of emotions.

But I think that’s it. I think for us, that has been what has kept us doing this, and it has helped us in many decisions. Like in many decisions, we ask, “Will this bring more autonomy to people?” And if the answer is yes, we have a certain degree of certainty that that’s the right move.

If the answer is, “Actually, this is going to be so much worse for autonomy and for individuality,” then yeah, we will just scrap it and we’ll start over on the drawing board. But asking that question, “Is this human-friendly? Is this decision going to be human-friendly?” And I mean, the entire human seen as a complex being that has loads of emotions and beliefs and wants.

And I would say it’s totally worth it again. I’m selling it as very good. I mean, of course, you guys don’t know me that well, but I’m not like a control freak. Well, sometimes a bit OCD and really control freak. I was a manager right before, and I was the kind of person that got a bit worried that things were not being done as I think they should have been done. And I got a bit itchy, and sometimes I would intervene.

And letting go of that was hard, and I understand if people are thinking, “But I want things in a certain way.” You will get so much more out of everyone contributing. Yes, sometimes people will do things that will not work out, but let these things happen, let it happen. It will work out in the end, if you strive for connection, autonomy, and respecting people, basically.

I would say that, like I said before, it turned out much better than I thought it would be, because we always have expectations of what can be, even from the examples we have. And people feel like they belong somewhere. And that reminds me of Brené Brown, belonging is different than fitting in. If you haven’t seen that podcast offer explaining that it’s amazing.

Belonging is being yourself in a place, and fitting in is trying to mold yourself to fit in a place. So and then when you really see people feeling that they belong, it’s just amazing. It’s incredible. Much more than we would ever be able to do by ourselves.

And I think we’ve met lots of managers that fear the letting go and fear that they have so much responsibility, they think they have so much responsibility, and they want to do well. But from our experience, everyone wants to do well. And if you create those connections, everyone wants to do well for each other. And a team together has much more to offer. And it’s amazing what people create. It’s really amazing and how they feel about that. So it’s great to see.