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Episode Transcript
Lisa: So Marwa, welcome to the Leadermorphosis podcast. Thanks for being here.
Marwa: Hi, Lisa. It’s lovely to be here. I’m excited about our conversation.
Lisa: Yeah, me too. So I thought maybe we could start by talking about you. How did you end up working with Teach for All, and what drew you to this work in general?
Marwa: Oh, that’s actually a story that I love to share. My husband actually found Teach for All for me. He had followed their work for some time, and then they were posting the role, and he was like, “I just found the best ever job that you’re gonna love,” and it was so true. What I loved about the job when I read it is that it brings two things that I’m deeply passionate about into one. I have a deep passion for the development of children and their well-being and leadership. I’ve done some experimentation with some stuff in that space, and Teach for All basically works on building collective leadership in the classrooms and communities around the world, and it focuses on children primarily. So I really love that mission of the organisation, and the role is the head of people, organisation and culture team, which is basically my entire career around development of leadership and change management and that kind of thing. So, yeah.
Lisa: And when you joined Teach for All, as I understand it, it was quite a different organisation back then. So what’s the journey been like, and what was the impetus to explore new ways of working?
Marwa: Our CEO, Wendy Kopp, has a really nice description of it. She used to call them “pebbles under the feet.” So as an organisation, we were still doing very well and operating in traditional ways of operation and stuff. And then there were pebbles under the feet, which she called pebbles under the feet. And these are certain things that we were experiencing or finding challenging, but weren’t able to really create a real sustainable breakthrough. Some of these things were the leadership development of our staff, ensuring that we build the judgment across layers of our organisation, ensuring that the people who are doing the work or at the front line are part of the decision making, and that we’re able to flexibly use our resources and our people and use their different talents within our organisation. So these are things that weren’t stopping us as an organisation, but they were, if you may, like discomforts that we felt. How we were operating back then wasn’t serving us in a way that enables us to sustainably create the breakthrough.
Lisa: So what did you decide then? How did you start on this process? What were the conversations like, and what were the steps that you took to kind of engage the organisation in a transformation?
Marwa: It started with Frederic Laloux’s book, and Wendy had read the book. Basically, she started sharing some of the ideas. We invited Laloux into our organisation to speak to our organisation. We had actually a consulting firm that also sort of operated around these new ways of working, come and share with us some of the ideas and different experiences or learnings from other organisations that are experimenting with some of this.
And then we sort of went on a journey to identify, what do we want in a blue sky world? Like, what do we want to really create in our organisation, what are we really longing for, or what are some of the things that we really need to learn more about to be able to do? And we identified a set of questions. We called them back then the “learning questions,” and we put them out and engaged all of our staff. So we had four or five learning questions. Each question had a sponsor, and we then invited the organisation for whoever wants to help us think about these questions to join the group. And basically this is how it all started.
We had almost 40% of our organisation join these groups, and these were cross-functional groups, so they were not only cross-functional, but cross-layer, cross-cultural, like they were very diverse. And basically our guideline was the sky is the limit, like don’t let’s not put boundaries about what’s possible. Let’s just think about these questions with an open sky thinking.
And it all started from there. These groups came up with a bunch of recommendations. We had one big meeting with everyone. We streamlined the meeting - it was called a senior team meeting. We streamlined it to the rest of the organisation. We invited some of the folks that were in these groups to the meeting, and we basically went through all the team, all these cross-functional groups’ proposals, and I think adopted all of them. Like we just made decisions on the spot around taking in all of the suggestions. And that was, I think, the true beginning of our journey.
Lisa: Could you give an example of maybe one or two of the learning questions or some of the recommendations that came out of that process?
Marwa: So one of the questions was, how do we bring decisions closer to the work? How to ensure that we’re unleashing the leadership of everyone. There are many other questions. I don’t remember them all, but they were around some of these, the pebbles that I mentioned under the feet.
Some of the decisions I remember very well. One that I love to share this story about, was there was a decision to dismantle our senior team. So we had a senior team that basically co-ran, co-managed the organisation with Wendy and one of the recommendations of the group is to dismantle the senior team, which we’ve done. We basically took a decision on the spot in that meeting that we’re going to dismantle the senior team.
The other decision was to shift over time the role of the manager. So, you know, in traditional organisations, the manager is your one point of contact for everything - development, performance, the work, everything coaching, they are like the point of contact, your one point of contact for you. So we shifted that. We realised that that limits our managers and also limits our staff member. And we wanted our staff members to choose who they go to for development and support and who works to be their biggest cheerleader in the organisation and so on.
Lisa: I remember when we spoke before, you described, I think you called them sponsors, where everyone can choose a sponsor. Can you say more about what that looks like in the current structure and how you’ve supported those sponsors in terms of their development to play that role?
Marwa: Again, one of my favourite things to speak about. So as we shifted the role of the manager to focus on the work and coordinating the work, ensuring that we’re progressing with the functional work, we realised that there’s so many other things that a staff member would need, and we wanted to create another space where our staff members would have choice to choose who they want to partner with to offer them that support.
On the other side, we realised that we have so much untapped leadership within the organisation, so what we’ve done is that we’ve created our mentor sponsorship programme, and we basically opened it up to our staff. We said, whoever wants to be a sponsor, here’s the role of the sponsor. You’re the biggest cheerleader. You help staff members navigate organisational dynamics. You talk to them about their development. We just basically identified the role and opened it up.
It was one of the highlights of my career, I would say, because who raised their hands to say, “Yes, I want to be a sponsor” was fascinating. We had people from across levels, layers, cultural backgrounds, it was just so diverse, and it was so honestly beautiful to witness.
But the second surprise to that is who has chosen, like how our staff members chose to be their sponsors, and it showed us, all of a sudden, this informal network of connections and informal network of preferences, really, that there was no way we would ever recognise or be able to identify as an organisation. So you’d see who wanted to choose who, some people had preferences to have their sponsors be at their same level, or people coming from their own culture or a senior person or a more junior person. It just really was so diverse and so different, and was such a celebration, and since then, we continue to evolve that programme to make it better and stronger. We create an onboarding programme for our sponsors. We have a cycle so people can opt to change their sponsors every year if they want. Some continue. We have sort of another organic structure where we support sponsors so they come together, talk about what they’re hearing from their staff members, and help each other leverage each other.
Lisa: What does the sponsor onboarding process look like? What kinds of things do you help them with when they’re getting started?
Marwa: Many things. So we talk about - it’s not very complex as a process. It’s simple. We talk about the role of the sponsor, we talk about confidentiality, we talk about some of the diversity and inclusiveness aspects that we would want them to be mindful of. We talk about our own values and our ways of working, and what sort of where do we stand on certain things as an organisation, just as a reminder.
We even talk about the kind of examples that people can bring to them and how to navigate what resources they have, who to leverage on. We have a Slack channel also that sponsors can reach out on the spot and sort of ask for help and that kind of thing. So we sort of help them see the sphere of resources and support that they have around them, and give them clarity around the role as a sponsor.
Lisa: Thank you. And I know you’ve mentioned culture and different cultures a few times, and I know that diversity, equity and inclusion is a topic that you’ve given a lot of thought to. And I remember you saying that there are people in your organisation coming from like 24 different cultural backgrounds, I think you said. So can you share what you’ve learned in that process and how these ways of working are supporting you in terms of diversity and equity and inclusion?
Marwa: I mean I even personally, on the personal level, I’ve learned so much as a human being about this, as a human being and as a leader. I think the first thing, the very first thing that I’ve learned, I think, is how to hold my own truth and others’ truth as equivalent, versus one better than the other. And I think it’s one of the most difficult things for me to learn. But it’s one of the things that I’m most proud about, I think, is to see that sometimes even if I see things as factual and truth, others may see things in a completely different way. And we’re both right. We’re both - this is truth to both of us, and how to hold that complexity of holding both two truths, sometimes even more, at the same time, and working with that without shame, judgment and punishment and fear and that kind of thing. So I think that’s my biggest learning, is just being more open to other people’s experiences as true, even if my experience is different.
I think the other thing is that DEI - diversity, equity and inclusiveness - is not a one-off. It’s an integrated set of work. If we want to be - and we’re on a journey at Teach for All, we’re still on a journey. We started our journey many years ago, but we’re still on that journey. So I wouldn’t claim that we’re fully where we want to be, but one of the things that I’ve learned over the years is that it’s an integrated effort. So it’s not only development, it’s not only shifting our mindsets, it’s not only systems, it’s all of these things coming together and working together, and I think it takes a lot of patience and consistency. I think that’s another big learning for me about this effort.
One other thing that came to my mind, the other thing that I always hear actually from our head of global diversity, equity, and inclusion say, and it’s one of my learnings that I’ve learned from her, actually, is, how do we put our values, our core values, as an organisation, at the centre, versus sort of our own, and being aware of our biases and not having our biases at the centre. So we as an organisation have certain bias on how we work, how we operate, and so on. And I think it takes a level of awareness to know what our bias is, and then to decenter that bias and actually centre our core values and what we’re truly trying to do.
Lisa: Thank you. It’s a topic that I’m really interested in and also very, very early in my own journey with exploring. And I’ve heard people share in their own contexts that it can be difficult for people from different cultural backgrounds or kind of marginalized groups. It could be more challenging for them, in some cases, to step into new ways of working and I think a lot of the examples out there, a lot of the books, a lot of the kind of loudest voices are coming from the global north, right? So I don’t know if you have any reflections or observations from that standpoint, if there were people in the organisation who found it more challenging, or that you found it important to support more intentionally in this process.
Marwa: I think there’s a spectrum across these new ways of working. There are people that this came completely natural to them, so it was completely okay. And then there’s a spectrum, if you’d say zero to 10, where there’s 10, where this is just sort of unacceptable in so many ways. And I think across that spectrum, there are so many aspects of diversity that come into play, not only cultural.
And yes, of course, we are aware that when it comes to the cultural piece, different cultures operate differently. For example, we know that there are hierarchical cultures that operate in a way where that freedom and that sort of that sense of agency is interpreted differently than in more Western dominant ways of thinking.
So what we’ve done - we actually, it’s one of our key principles that development of leadership within the organisation, and one of our key investments that we’ve been consistent about now for six years, I think, in a row, is the investment in individual leadership development of our staff around aspects of their sense of awareness, of their preferences, leadership, own cultural biases and understanding and their sense of agency - being aware of their voice and what their voice wants to say and how to elevate their voice in the organisation.
But also, other than development as an organisation, how are we creating these spaces, and how are we creating these bridging mechanisms to enable our staff to actually elevate their voice in these spaces? So the sponsorship is one of our key mechanisms to do that, if our diverse staff members choose sponsors to support them.
Lisa: Thank you for sharing that. I can see how the combination of principles and I like what you say about really integrating it throughout everything, rather than like, “Oh, and then we have this sort of DEI piece over here” as a sort of article, but really thinking about it across the whole system and how sponsors can support with that. And am I right in thinking that also everyone has access to, like, the equivalent of executive coaches or something like that, right?
Marwa: So we actually have partnered with another organisation. They’re called Kairos. We love them, and we partnered with them, where we offer our staff members the option to get executive coaching on demand. So we sort of purchase a set of hours from our partners, and we do it in a way where we have our own system, and our staff can access basically external coaching on demand. So when they want, they go into the system, they book with a coach that they want, and they get that coaching.
Lisa: What would you say have been some of the biggest challenges in this process? Because it’s been a couple of years now, right? What have been some of the most challenging moments, and what are some big questions that you’re still holding?
Marwa: Many things, there are many challenges in this journey. I think the biggest thing is, when you’re starting a transformation, clarity is one of the biggest needs that our staff members wanted from us. What is it that we’re trying to achieve? What is our sort of “end in mind”? That’s something that is always asked, and it’s not sort of that conceptual vision of like, “We want a world where we’re free, we have agency, we are able to allocate.” That wasn’t enough. There was a lot more detail that was needed that we weren’t able to offer.
So I think that comes into play when there is fear, there is, I think, a hyper need for clarity, that if you’re going on a journey of sort of, really learning and evolving and sensing and responding, it’s very difficult to have a set-in-stone type vision to communicate to everyone. So that was, I think, one of the things.
The other thing is that we’ve been - organisations and people, all of us have been, we are graduates of systems where we internalize certain ways of being and doing and operating, and a lot of these new ways of working are actually against that and are wanting us to unlearn that, and that’s the most difficult thing.
Like I always tell people who talk a lot in this ecosystem of new ways of working, a lot of people say people want freedom. Yes, people, innately, as human beings, want freedom, but that is not necessarily in an organisational context or an institutional context. As a matter of fact, when we gave freedom, we’ve heard a lot of staff members, like some of our staff members, were very terrified by that freedom, and there’s just a process of unlearning that needs to happen for us to progress.
So I think these are some of the challenges that came into play. The other piece is how do you go through such a massive process of ongoing evolution, while being inclusive? It’s very difficult, because inclusion means different things for different people.
Lisa: I love this thing that you said about a process of unlearning, and I’ve also encountered this challenge from people that for many, freedom is really scary and stepping into authority, making decisions, you know, all of that stuff is very new and very scary for some people. What have you learned about how to support people in that kind of unlearning journey?
Marwa: I think many things. One, I think the first thing that as you’re asking the question that popped into my head is awareness, just being aware of all of the different things that come into play when this is happening, one of which is the power dynamics.
So there is some of the things that you mentioned around people that don’t necessarily come from dominant backgrounds, or don’t feel like they actually hold any power within the organisational context, and I think as leaders, we need to come into this process with a lot of awareness about these things and be able to leverage each other to learn basically what kind of things exist, what kind of dynamics exist, and be able to navigate these dynamics with care and empathy. So I think that that’s the first thing.
The second thing, I would say, is just deep conviction. It’s not a mindset thing. It’s just a deep conviction that everyone has wisdom that benefits, that can benefit the work. So I think believing in the leadership of everyone, especially - we actually in Teach for All have a core value around diversity, equity and inclusiveness, and another one around locally rooted and globally informed, which comes from this deep conviction that we think that people who have experienced the inequities in the world should be leading the work globally to improve, to create collective leadership within their classrooms and communities. And I think in organisations too, that applies. So that deep conviction is, I think, the foundation of any work to come.
And then, thirdly, I would say, the development, the investment in the leadership development of our staff. So one of the things that we’ve been investing is this programme that we have created within Teach for All. It’s called Leading Self, where our staff spends six months, and then they continue a journey really, exploring their leadership, their identity, their limitations, their fears, their values. It just really, really in-depth, getting to learn about themselves and raise their own awareness to be able to then sort of grow into the leaders that they want to be.
Lisa: Thank you for sharing that. I really like this conviction idea, like really holding them to be true. I’m curious about what the communication culture is like. I know that you are a long-term practitioner of non-violent communication, for example. How do you navigate kind of tensions and conflicts in the organisation? How are people supported to develop in terms of how they communicate, how they collaborate, how they are with each other?
Marwa: Again, I think integration is the awareness and integration are the keywords here. I think it all comes back to being aware of what are the dynamics that are taking place, and approaching that with deep empathy and deep listening. What I mean - one of the things that I learned in NVC is how to really, not only listen to what people are saying and how are they saying it, but actually almost double-click on that and really understand what is the human need that is being expressed.
What that gave me as a professional and as a human being, is when there’s tension in the room, I’m not looking at how the person is behaving, because focusing on that sort of limits my openness. But really I’m curious about what is the need that they’re trying to meet in the moment.
So I think there’s something around awareness that is a starting point. And then the second thing is, again, an integration of different things happening together. So again, development, the leadership development of our staff, but also having different spaces and channels where staff are able to collaborate with each other, and for us as an organisation, to be able to communicate openly and talk about the things that we want to talk about, and surface them. How do we set up our structures and systems in a way where they are the ground that enables us to sort of take off and fly, but are not a ceiling that limits us as an organisation from working together?
Lisa: That’s really interesting. I really have this image of creating and unleashing leadership from all over the organisation and supporting leadership to develop and flourish in everyone. I’m wondering if you have any examples or stories to share where you’ve seen initiatives pop up, or something unexpected or kind of wonderful coming from somewhere that wouldn’t have previously been possible, perhaps before you started this journey.
Marwa: Oh, there’s so much they could talk about. I mean, I can think of even our environmental focus as an organisation, like, caring about the environment. I think that started a few years ago by a few staff members that really cared about this issue and wanted to bring it into the organisation, and they came together, sort of talked about it, and fast forward a couple of years now, it’s something that we’re hiring a position for, and we’re getting funding for, and it’s something that is a priority across our organisation. So this is one thing that comes to mind that is very, very present.
But there’s also things around what we talk about as an organisation when we come together. So we have a lot of these, what we call organisational spaces, and they’re usually around our diversity, equity and inclusiveness, and we basically engage with each other in difficult conversations. So I think I go into these spaces, and a lot of the times someone is challenging us, challenging some of the organisational practices. And it could be anyone like from the most junior staff member to the most senior. Everyone has a voice, and these things happen.
Recently, we’ve had a few exits in the organisation, for example, and some staff members were like, “Okay, we need to call to come together, understand what’s happening” and we went to this call, and people challenged and asked, and it’s just, there’s just such strong voice and holding each other accountable and care. Not only is it a strong voice and holding each other accountable, but with deep care about our mission and what we’re trying to do as an organisation.
Lisa: That, for me, is always a good sign when there is really a culture of kind of challenge coming from a place of really kind of co-owning and feeling like this is ours together, and let’s put the elephant in the room sort of thing.
Marwa: Yeah, that definitely happens all the time, all the time. It’s one of these things that I think when people talk about the new ways of working, or you read it in a book, you think of utopia. You think there’s gonna be somehow, heaven or something, but it doesn’t exist. I actually think one of the most amazing things about these new ways of working is that tension is present and surfaced, and we’re all engaging with it, and that’s what makes it unique, because traditionally, you put tension under the carpet, or stop it, because you don’t want the noise, but we actually welcome the noise. We want to discuss the noise and grapple with that tension together as an organisation.
Lisa: I love that. I’m wondering what have been your main learnings as a human being, as a leader in the organisation? What have you discovered?
Marwa: I think I’m gonna sound like I’m repeating myself, but I think this piece that I mentioned at the beginning of like holding my truth and everybody else’s truth as equivalent, I think, is truly one of my biggest learnings as a leader in the world and as someone who’s in the centre of this work in the organisation, and is with my team and our colleagues driving this work.
Sometimes, a lot of the times I walk into the room and I have a different perspective, I have a different level of clarity, maybe, or comfort with it and so on. So I think one of my biggest learnings over the year is, how do I go with that, with my own experience, and honour my experience, but also honour the experience of others around me? And how do I approach that, in NVC words, without shame, blame, judgment, fear or punishment, because a lot of the times when difference occurs immediately, we create enemy images of the people that are different from us. So I think this is one my biggest learning. I don’t think we would have been able to do this work if there’s judgment in the process.
I think the other thing that I’ve learned is this idea of deep listening. I’ve been in a development for the last year that just really helped me as a leader, to sort of see things in a new light. And one of the things that I’ve learned is how do we look at people that are criticising or raising a tension or are angry or scared - how to look at what they’re bringing in the light of it being a request, and sort of asking myself, “What is the request underneath the behavior underneath what’s happening? What are they longing for in this moment, and as a leader in the organisation, how can I support them meet that need?” So, yeah, I think these are one of the key two key things that I think are my biggest learning as a leader and a human being, really.
Lisa: Those are two very powerful things. I’m curious, if you’re willing to share, were those sparked by a particular moment, or has that been kind of an ongoing process for you, or the result of a practice, or how did those insights come about?
Marwa: I think definitely an ongoing thing. First of all, I have been supported by some incredible people in Teach for All and outside Teach for All. I think I myself am a different person from when I joined six plus years ago. I can think of a few people that really had supported me to live into some of these beliefs or values and help me see different perspectives and so on. So I think definitely it was an evolving process, and definitely with the support and learning that I’ve got from coaching from others and so forth.
And then development - really taking the time to develop myself. When we talk about leadership development and these journeys, we’re being part of them ourselves and in a lot of our especially DEI development, we actually started with our senior leadership. So we always start with the senior folks and encourage - we don’t do mandatory anything, but we really heavily encourage our senior staff to engage in the development with the rest of our staff. So, yeah, and then just sort of holding myself accountable, I guess.
Lisa: I guess I’m interested in what are your hopes for the future, in terms of Teach For All? What are things currently in development? What are kind of dreams and aspirations for how you think this journey might evolve?
Marwa: My hope is that we continue evolving as an organisation. We continue in that path as an organisation to learn more about our commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion, to learn about how to be an inclusive organisation, how to be a continuously learning organisation. I think that is my hope, like there’s something so special about our organisation right now. And my true, deep hope is that we continue doing that.
And then, selfishly, I hope that we are able to share that more with our network of partners around the world, but also globally, just with others who are interested in adopting these new ways of working.
So I think that is sort of on a very dream and aspirations level. On an organisation level, we’re grappling now with the idea of decentering white dominant ways of working, the idea of how trauma truly impact our work, how do we create collective well-being. So I guess, on an organisation level, my hope is that we progress with some of these learning questions moving forward.
Lisa: It also strikes me that one of my kind of side passions is, in the same way that I’m talking to people about reinventing organisations, really reinventing education and learning for children and for young people. And it feels very fitting that Teach for All is exploring these ways of working in terms of how you collaborate and organise yourselves, because I also hope to see that much more in schools and educational institutions, and it’s really exciting to me to think about the impact that that will enable you and all of your partner organisations to have on children’s lives.
Marwa: Yeah, absolutely.
Lisa: In starting to wrap up our conversation, what advice or sort of tips for the journey would you give to listeners who are exploring new ways of working themselves, based on your experience?
Marwa: I can think of a few things. The first thing is, I think I’m going to steal that from Susan Ambassador-field, is starting with the mindset. I think that is just so important, starting from that space of asking yourself as an organisation or as a leader, why am I doing what I’m doing? What are the underlying assumptions behind what I’m doing, and truly trying to understand that? Because we realise, I think, innately as human beings, when we understand what assumptions some of the management and organisational sciences are built on, we would sort of walk away from that immediately, if we understand where these assumptions and foundations come from.
So I think starting with the mindset, really questioning why we do what we do, and is it the best way to do it? I think the second thing is patience, lots and lots of patience. This is a long journey. It’s small evolutions where you sense and respond, sense and respond, either as a leader or as an organisation. That takes patience, so having patience with all of that and knowing that you’re not going to be always clear, but one step will lead to another.
And then the third piece is just being consistent about what your principles are. Be very clear about your principles. We’ve identified really early on our growth and development philosophy, where we mapped what are our assumptions about people, that we’re trusting everyone’s wisdom. So being clear about these and just be consistent in honouring some of these principles that you’ve already identified. I think these are the three things that come to my mind.
Lisa: And is there anything else that we haven’t touched on that you would love to share with listeners?
Marwa: Gosh, I think no, not really. We covered a lot. I mean, there’s so much that I can share. But this feels good. I think just when people think about the new ways of working, especially when you look at examples that are everywhere, they seem like such a distant reality from where we are right now as traditional organisations in general. And I think that, in itself, becomes a mental barrier.
So I think what I want to say is take it one step at a time, start with something and one thing will lead to another. So don’t look at these examples as like “what we need to do tomorrow,” but rather like every organisation is different, and the new ways of working are going to look different in different organisations. I think what’s important is that we’re on the path.
