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Episode Transcript
Lisa: So Skeena, thank you first of all so much for coming on the Leadermorphosis podcast. Really excited to have this conversation with you. I was wondering if, to start with, perhaps you could share a bit with listeners about what your role is in Extinction Rebellion and why its purpose is so important to you personally?
Skeena: Oh thank you, it’s such a delightful pleasure to be here with you, sharing some of the deeper rooted ideas and heart intelligence of Extinction Rebellion. That’s perhaps what I feel I can share with you. My role has been to create a Vision Sensing Circle and teams around that, as well as other teams that relate to, I suppose, new ways of being and thinking. I think my interest is in how we enable multiple intelligences to gather and collaborate, and how we make space for the voice, the unconscious voice, and the voice of the non-human and our heart intelligence and whole body intelligence actually. How all of those more from resonate and build and spark and create change, you know, create the kind of change we are yearning for, which is for a whole evolutionary step for humanity really. So it’s been a real honor to be in the right place at the right time, creating energy for what is beautiful about change. I hope that’s what we’ve been doing together.
Lisa: And I’m curious, because you know, being in the Vision Sensing Circle, I’m curious to get a sense of what that must feel like right now when suddenly things have changed so much, even just in the last few days. And I know you’re in the UK, things have changed very much in the last few days since the announcement for people to stay home. How has that felt in the community and how has that felt and responded to in the Vision Sensing Circle?
Skeena: So I think the Vision Sensing Circle, what we’re learning is that visioning isn’t about just a projection of what could be in the way of on the horizon, but it’s also about contextualizing and recontextualizing what the present moment is. And so, wow, we’re in this incredible moment where we’re having to look down as well as look up and look around us. You know, and we’ve talked a lot about a vision acting as a North Star, and at the moment I’m actually thinking about vision as the bird bath, if that makes sense. That there we are kind of bathing in, we’ve located this new fountain of—you know, there’s kind of new waters, there’s just a new landscape and we’re encountering everything changing in that moment.
And the sense of being able to stop and bathe and kind of watch out for what is around us, because when you stop, when you stop and you take that moment to bathe in that moment, then of course you’re also looking out to what is around you—what are the threats and what are the opportunities. So I’ve never experienced, actually since it’s been 18 months more of Extinction Rebellion, I haven’t experienced a time when vision was actually about now.
So I think the community is feeling a constant tension of wanting to reflexively do and act and be the change in the world and show how that is, but also this huge magnetic force around us to stop and rest and breathe and feel and reflect. And it’s impossible to ignore how the world has got quieter, and yet Extinction Rebellion is about the call to action. And as an activist, your sense of worth and identity is wrapped in that. So who are we if we can’t act?
What I’m imagining is that perhaps this is a moment for some kind of radical creativity because more people are resting, or at least we are more conscious of the need to, or we’re being forced to. And then we’re being forced to go, “Well, I need to look at myself now and see what I am, what I’ve become.” So yeah, it’s hard. There’s a conflict in me too. I’m feeling the pull—massive pull—to do and find out more about what this is, what can I learn now. And yet I’m also feeling my soul going, “Maybe there is more rest that needs to be done than actively learning and pursuing.”
Lisa: That’s so interesting. I’m wondering, how do you as a community, how do you hold that conflict, those sort of two polarities? Or how do you press that tension? Like, what do the dialogues look like?
Skeena: Sure, yeah, I really hear what you’re saying. You know, one of my favorite people in the world is Parker Palmer, and how he talks about the paradox, and how it’s when we can learn to embrace the paradox, there we have it—there we have humanity in its thriving. So we are holding both. It’s not either/or. We don’t have to stop.
In fact, if you’re—for example, if your work is spiritual work, if your intelligence stream in the world is through spirit, this is a very busy time for you. This is really active, busy time. That really makes my heart soar that we could be leaning into—Vision Sensing holds the Ceremonies Team, and it holds the Eldership Team, and it holds a deep amount of thinking about what is—what our spiritual intelligence is telling us, calling us to be in this moment of collapse and the beginnings of—actually I’m kind of going, “Wow, this is us now being called to, yeah, into our own, not necessarily action but just our own way of being in the world in a much deeper way.” It’s really exciting.
Lisa: How would you see, and what kinds of conversations are you having together about the role of Extinction Rebellion now? Because obviously when I think when Extinction Rebellion came into the public consciousness, it was largely on the platform of the climate emergency. And I think you were involved in clearly being in the Vision Circle, sort of the 2020 vision, and now obviously having to respond and sense and adapt quite quickly to what’s unfolding with coronavirus. And I’ve seen some of the—started to dip my toe in the vast, amazing resources that are on the Extinction Rebellion website at the moment, that hashtag #AloneTogether, all kinds of Zoom calls and community things. It’s amazing. So yeah, what is your sense of what is Extinction Rebellion’s role in all of this now?
Skeena: That’s a great question. I think our role is multifold. I think we can go deeper into some truth-telling actually. I think that—so for example, today I heard that the local councils are being asked to clear the homeless off the streets by the weekend. Now if that can happen in two days, then this narrative we’ve had around homelessness…
So I think as these, as humanity starts to work in a different way, we are going to be challenged to ask new questions and reveal deeper truths or more truths, new truths. So I think I imagine our role to be ears to the ground, really fulsomely. Ears to the ground—what is happening, what is possible? You know, in extreme circumstances where business as usual has to stop.
I mean, one of our main—you know, the skies have been cleared. So we don’t need, we didn’t need to do that. We didn’t need to go to Heathrow and stop the planes. So if we don’t need to do some of these things that we were imagining as rebels we would physically be called to do, then what is it we do now?
And it’s not that—so they’re still planning, for example, to—what they are right in this moment, some of our most ancient woodland is being cleared for a high-speed rail link. Now that is dire, it’s serious, it’s violent. And so there’s still work for us to do in challenging the here and now of the harm that humans are continuing to perpetuate. But I feel that there are other truths.
There’ll be truths around how the pharmaceuticals operate in this climate, how the tech companies operate in this climate, where the power really is in this kind of situation will be revealed. And I think we’ve got a lot of listening to do to that.
So for me, that’s where, what I’m most interested in us doing in this moment is actually paying attention to where harm is continuing, and the shock doctrine type of activity that Naomi Klein is talking about. You know, we’re distracted now, so we will go in and tear down your ancient woodlands, attack Earth’s lungs again. But also it will be very interesting to watch—it is very interesting to watch how, where power is being activated.
And therefore, who does Extinction Rebellion, and among many other movements, with many other movements, who do we need to speak to when we say we want this harm to stop? We want to stop destroying ourselves. We want us to pull back from the edge of collective suicide. Who do we need to speak to when we say those things? And who and where is the power? Because also in the people right now.
Because I think you can see through #AloneTogether, through the campaign that we’ve launched, which incidentally The Guardian have used our slogan, which is really exciting—let’s watch how people manage to be alone together and how people deal with this extreme separation actually, which always is—we’ve been separated, those fault lines are there. But it will be really interesting to watch humans step into their nature to resist that separation. So there’s a lot of a lot of attending and listening to do.
Lisa: Yeah, what I hear in what you’re saying is like listening, as you say, like ear to the ground and noticing truths being revealed. Like, wouldn’t that be amazing if that was possible to get homeless people off the streets? I was just thinking today, like now we have all these empty schools and office buildings. But how interesting that that can be done. And I’m thinking about in the world of work, you know, people saying, “Oh, so all this time organizations were telling us it wasn’t possible to work remotely or for disabled people to work from home?” Actually, that wasn’t true because it’s happened overnight.
So yeah, so listening and amplifying those truths, those stories sounds like, which I think is really valuable. I’m thinking about, you know, using the example perhaps of the #AloneTogether campaign, because one thing, because of the focus of this podcast that I’m interested in, is sort of two dimensions of Extinction Rebellion in terms of how you organize and how you relate to each other and to the world.
It’s sort of one piece is like, you know, the structures, the systems, how you make decisions together. And then the other piece that I am particularly interested in is also like the mindset shift, the shift in how you communicate, the language you use. I know you’ve worked with Miki Kashtan and nonviolent communication is kind of a core part of Extinction Rebellion. And I’ve read some really interesting pieces about individuals in Extinction Rebellion doing a lot of shadow work, and it seems to be quite a sort of self-reflective community and quite, you know, quite honestly interrogating itself often and being quite humble and being quite willing to look at some of the challenging areas or some of the more painful learning areas. So yeah, I was wondering if we could spend some time exploring those dimensions a little bit and how Extinction Rebellion manifests something like the #AloneTogether campaign.
Skeena: I have to say, I’m so enormously—I’m chuffed with the #AloneTogether campaign. I’m so appreciating how great we are at pulling together something so meaningful and alive and dynamic and really beautiful actually, with a really heartfelt intention to help the UK and beyond hold itself.
You’ve asked lots of questions in the questions—yes, I think you’ve asked about our structures and our systems that enable Extinction Rebellion to be a reflective space and an emergent space. So yeah, we have these ten principles and values first of all that we ask people to fully consider when they ask to work in the name of Extinction Rebellion. And I think they really help to guide us.
So for example, we have a no blaming and shaming principle, and we talk about regenerative culture and creating a healthy, resilient, regenerative cultures. I’m saying the ‘s’ because recently we’ve been challenged on “it can’t be a culture” because actually we are a rich, diverse group of people where many cultures will need to exist together.
So I think that that really helps—our principles and values really help because actually then we have to discover, in their aspirations—more than anything, we have to discover what they mean. And in discovering regenerative culture/cultures, we have to think about having, kind of look at ourselves and thinking about—if we think through a Gandhian perspective, needing—I mean he called it self-purification, but we can call it self-transformation—but needing a theory of change that is about the self is, for me, part of who we are, working towards that.
And that then, if we’re thinking that we are all in that place of—if we’re asking the world to change and we are all in that place of asking for the change within ourselves, then what work needs to be done? A constructive program of some kind is something that we’re talking about a lot. It happens through grief circles, and I’m hoping that what we’re going to be doing in this period is more truth and reconciliation circles.
And then, so if we come from self, then to healing the relationships, then we also have a Transformative Conflict and Justice System. It’s not perfect, there’s so much work to do. Our Feedback and Learning Culture team is needing to do a lot of harvesting around what inner conflicts are causing conflicts between people and circles. And there’s a heap of work to do, really very hard, because we are humans who are in our trauma. You know, we have suffered the pain of the separation story. We are in our mourning and our sorrow and our vulnerability, and it’s showing up all the time and it’s really painful.
But I suppose it fits with our first demand, because if we’re saying “tell the truth and act as if the truth is real,” then actually that requires us on individual, personal, relational levels and systemic levels. This is really important. This is where Miki’s like, “Come on, think systemically. It’s all got to line up, right?” It’s all got to line up. And we’re trying, and we keep falling over and we haven’t got it right. There isn’t a right. We’re tripping over all the time, but we’re trying, we’re trying.
So, and then that—you asked about our structure. I think our decentralized, holocratic with sociocratic and ways of working in there are trying to live and breathe in a way that is respectful to humans as activators and as humans that can hold real purpose—their own unique purpose—and meet a collective purpose. And there’s a lot of respect, I think, that and trust that allows—I think when you have a structure or a system that allows people to, or asks people to be the fullest expression of themselves, but to work in relation with others in a way that respects that too, and also then as a movement to create systems that respect a power-with model and a leaderfulness, then you have quite a movement. And you have a really juicy, transformative movement.
And like I say, we’re still finding it, we’re still finding it, but we are aspiring to be a movement that is living and breathing inside and outside its transformative purpose and vision.
Lisa: Thank you. That’s really, really clarifying. I’m sort of thinking about—I’m a member of a collective called Enspiral, and I think in a similar way, I see parallels of being in a community of people who are actively experimenting together with new ways of organizing in order to do more meaningful, purposeful work together. And it’s, you know, and it’s funny because everyone I speak to that is on this journey shares that it’s painful, and there’s so much growth pain.
And Frederic Laloux talks about that too, that there’s all of this growth pain. And the more spaces we can create for people to speak that and for it to be listened to and transformed together, the more we can sort of continue to move forward. And so it’s, yeah, that really comes up for me in what you’re saying as well.
Skeena: Absolutely, absolutely. I think Brené Brown says pain that is not transformed is pain that is transmitted. And I think we are transmitting pain all the time. And we’re—but we’re also trying to transform it.
Lisa: You’ve mentioned something about this word “leaderful,” which I love and I’ve been using a lot as well. And I think, I mean, especially given that you’re a very diverse group but predominantly, you know, activists, I guess in Frederic Laloux’s language, I can see that there would naturally be a tendency towards more of a green paradigm where there’s like a need for harmony or equality.
And again, I think about this idea of paradoxes, that how can we—how can we have equality and people having a voice and so on without having a leadership vacuum or a total lack of accountability? Like, how do you, how do you embrace both those paradoxes so that in, you know, trying to move away from old paradigms, we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater? So I’m curious if you bear some examples of how you’ve been exploring that together and lessons you’ve learned from trying to embrace that power-with and not ending up with power-under or those kinds of things.
Skeena: It’s very tricky. It’s very, very tricky. Because there is social, relational, structural power and privilege within Extinction Rebellion. Of course there is. And of course we are by large a white middle-class movement. And how is it that we ensure, enable, create a space for oppression to transform itself so that there is a power-with? And that actually, how do we understand that none of this is going to work unless we are in co-liberation together? So I am not safe until you are. I’m not thriving until you are. And you are not thriving and safe until I am. And you are not free until I am free. So it’s like recognizing the deep reconciliation work that needs to happen there around our liberation. And I’m calling it co-liberation.
So it’s moving from a paradigm of domination, power-over, solutions-focused, to this model of care and collaboration and co-liberation. And then at the same time, yes, you need—in all of those realms, you will need a leaderfulness and leadership to enable—to enable visionary agreements to be made. You need visionary leadership. You just do.
So it’s like creating a space that honors that, that allows it, and more than that, cherishes it actually, and allows it to rise in its kind of need and necessity, allows its fullness. And then also, in this humility of every step of the way, we need to ask—every time we lift leadership, we need to ask, how do we cause leadership where oppression exists? I think that’s the question maybe. You know, every time we lift a face of leadership or an aspect of leadership, how, at the same time, are we meeting the tension and the trauma of where oppression has its breeding ground?
And it’s just really, really difficult. But it is exciting because that’s the project that I’m working on at the moment with Miki and two wonderful men who care very much about this subject, Victor Lewis and Paul Kaihla. And I think we’re gonna do something. And again, you know, it won’t be perfect, but we’re gonna try. We’re gonna try and hold this paradox and work out the relationship of it, try and do something about how it interacts and creates all kinds of… well, I think when paradoxes meet, they create like a mathematical formula that you need to solve somehow. So that’s how it feels. It feels like I’m looking for x plus y, because what, five x? And I’m trying to rearrange the whole time, so that’s what we’re working on. And XR is really committed to that. What’s beautiful is the commitment, and what’s beautiful is having to find the huge humility around it, all of us, all of us together. And sometimes we don’t, we just don’t. And sometimes we do.
Lisa: I’m really interested in that project, because I think—I know my own personal journey is, you know, with this podcast, for example, I found that in the beginning I was asking people very practical questions: How do you make decisions? How are you structured? And this topic of power has become a real focal point for me. And I think people that—I think now that particularly in Europe, there are, there is—the movement is maturing in terms of people, you know, experimenting with new ways of organizing and collaborating to the point that, you know, some organizations have been doing it for several years now. And they’re getting to this place too, of okay, we need to shift more than just our structures and processes; there’s all of these power dynamics and our paradigms and all kinds of other things that we need to shift.
So I don’t know how much you’re able or willing to share about this project that you’re working on with Miki and those two men you mentioned, or perhaps any kind of starting points or ideas that you’re starting to have about how one would go about starting a project like that. Like, what are the questions? How do you start?
Skeena: I don’t think there’s one start point. I think that we’re back to personal transformational theory of change, because I think we have to have a look at your internalized oppression. And then it’s trying to figure out how oppression shows up, how it has shown up systemically, where have we made agreements without understanding the impact that has on our own unconscious bias, but also then on people who just, you know, actually just have historically had less power. They just have.
It’s how do you lower the threshold for people who are really used to having less power? How do you speak to them about that without recreating some kind of “I know better and I know how I can help you,” and you know, how… yeah, it’s just so difficult.
I suppose what I can share is that we are just in that process of building a team around it and scoping out the work that has happened in Extinction Rebellion, because lots of work has happened in Extinction Rebellion around this, and none of it’s particularly worked. And we don’t even know actually what “worked” works looks like because no one has ever created anything.
I think—I just want to share with you—the first time I think I consciously became aware of how big this work is, is when I said to Miki, and she helped me to frame it, “My dream, my vision for Extinction Rebellion would be for Extinction Rebellion to become a touchstone for the work of co-liberation. And if I could only choose one dream to have for Extinction Rebellion, it would be this, because I think it’s the work most worth doing.”
Because I think humans who can feel their liberation with others, humans that can feel a reconciliation with others, could change everything. Humans that can condemn, they can be in collaboration, they can do the repair work, they can do the regeneration, they can do the restoration—everything is possible if you and I feel free to do it and feel that we matter and feel that we have a right to be here together in it.
And as soon as that happens, as soon as that dynamic happens between two people or a group of people, then—you know, it’s Margaret Mead—it’s always a small group of people that change the world. And if we can scale that up, oh my goodness, what can we do? So we’re just looking, we’re just kind of mining what’s happened in XR and what is it that we can do differently. We were right at the beginning, we were right at the beginning of that deep dive into exploring what will it take for co-liberation to be a living, breathing, transformative aspect of XR.
Lisa: That’s really inspiring to me. That’s yeah, it’s really exciting to think—I get very present to the potential of that. I wanted to talk a little bit about—you mentioned resilience at the top of the conversation, and one of the things I think, you know, in researching for this conversation with you, one of the things that I found very sad was the sort of aggression and anger and hatred that is so immediately accessible when you start googling Extinction Rebellion.
And I watched your interview, as you know, with Piers Morgan—I don’t know if you could call it an interview, but it was very painful to watch. And just earlier this week, a couple of days ago, was this fake account tweeting this poster that corona is the cure and humans are the disease. And of course then people got angry about Extinction Rebellion.
So there’s so much criticism in the media that I feel is very unfair. And I’m curious about how you as an individual and you as a community build resilient cultures, how you deal with that. Because it must be—it must be painful to have to be represented and misrepresented in that way and to have such anger coming at you, as I experience it anyway from the outside.
Skeena: I think sometimes I felt frustrated. So I’ll think about it like you say in a personal way and then in a collective way. I think personally, I felt frustrated at times, but I also have great empathy. And I think this is part of our work, is to have empathy for where people are and for what their reality is and for what they’re worrying and caring about, and for the trauma that they are in.
I think that’s what Extinction Rebellion is all about—meeting others in real empathy and kindness, ultimate kindness, as well as saying, “I’m here with my red line, with my no for what is. I will hold this harmful action to account.” So and but as I do it, I will have empathy for who you are and what you do.
So I think that’s how I felt on Piers actually. I actually did not feel anything but real kind of sadness for his—he was so angry. And I just felt for him. I just thought, “My goodness, your face is going red, your blood pressure must be rising. You’re not okay. You’re in pain. And therefore you can’t let me speak.” So here it is, here’s the trauma that is the issue actually.
And I think that when people judge us in a way, it’s about them. It’s about their fear. And so I think we have a responsibility to listen again to what fears that there are out there and what preoccupations. How do we reach people who are living a very different daily story?
You know, Caroline Myss says this, you know, how never before has any generation been so powerless in terms of what their story is, because we are subjected to 24/7 story-making from elsewhere. So we are in this kind of mist and haze, fog of colliding stories right through our social channels and technology and the media—constant storm that’s out there, frenzy. It’s a media frenzy, really, isn’t it? So how on earth do we know what our story is within that? And what is the real, what is the story, what is the truth? It’s very, very, very difficult, really difficult. And yeah, I don’t hold—I just hold real empathy, I think, for all of us struggling with that every day.
Lisa: Well, you mentioned the word “listening,” and I mean, it that’s what struck me watching that clip was, “Wow, what has to be true for someone to not listen to that degree?” To me was sort of fascinating.
Skeena: Wow. And Francis of Assisi said to his disciples, “Now go out and spread the word of the Lord. And only sometimes, and really only sometimes, you may have to speak.” That’s nice. I like that. I really think it’s about how we show up and with literally the love in our eyes and our hearts that we show up with.
I think we’re—when we talk about being in an era of post-truth, I think words now are becoming—being lost on people because we are in that era. We are in a post-truth era. So if words don’t mean what they used to mean, then what is it? But how is it that we need to show up?
So, and even science, right. And this is, you know, we live in this kind of epoch where scientism is the ruling class really. And but actually you can now find any science on the internet to corroborate or fit with where you are naturally drawn to, the belief that you are drawn to believe in. So it’s—yes, and there’s an overwhelming truth, of course there is, from scientists that we are looking at climate breakdown of a kind that is—it means an existential threat for the continuation of humanity. But even that, those words and that science doesn’t seem to mean a great deal or enough of a deal to most people, even though the polls say that over 60 percent of people are concerned about our climate health.
Concern translating into wanting to confront and address, you know, it’s not happening. It’s not happening. So what story do we need to tell? Yes, but I’m interested in how do we need to be? Because I feel the limit of words in this current moment. I really feel the limitation of words.
Lisa: That’s very powerful. I spend a lot of time facilitating leadership trainings, and we always start, always, by talking about who are we being. And I think about that a lot now too, especially for those of us who are leaders. And I suppose we’re all leaders in one way or another, but how we choose to be profoundly affects how other people show up around us. And yeah, I think you’re right, that you can just—I think about Benjamin Zander’s TED Talk and shining eyes. You know, when someone looks at you and their eyes are shining, and you know they’re listening, you know they’re empathizing, and you just feel it. And you draw on a different version of yourself than you would otherwise.
Skeena: For sure, for sure. I think there’s a gateway here, Lisa, and I think the gateway’s grief. You know, I only realized earlier this week during my own grieving about where we are with corona and the suffering and the separation, that what I haven’t seen or felt enough of is people that I admire and love to listen to. I’ve not seen enough of their grief.
If I think about the Dalai Lama or Desmond Tutu or Nelson Mandela or Brené Brown, or who—you know, blob on and on and on and on, I could say so many people—I haven’t seen enough grief. And Stephen Jenkinson—I’ve got a quote here: “Hold your sorrow to a degree of eloquence whereby everyone around you will be fed by your efforts to do so. Hold your sorrow to a degree of eloquence whereby everyone around you will be fed by your efforts to do so.”
I just have this really deep instinct that our lungs are so stuck. We are the most sedentary generation ever, and we are the most removed generation ever from grieving in a way that’s the breathlessness of grief. You know, when you’re sobbing and there’s just—the lungs are just working really hard. And the coronavirus is about your lungs. And our climate breakdown is about the collapsing lungs of this earth. It’s about our suffocating, acidifying oceans which give us more oxygen than any other—its organs, say, of the earth, if you would describe it as one of the earth’s organs. And our forests that are the next probably greatest providers of the air, the oxygen we need—the deforestation.
Our lungs are collapsing. The earth’s lungs are in erosion and collapse. And the air pollution is also directly suffocating physically our lungs. But also I think our unspent emotions are suffocating us. And I think the one that’s really suffocating us is our grief, that we just haven’t connected to—how we grieve, how we could. That enormous grief of feeling separated or disconnected from each other, which starts as a baby. You know, we’re told not to cry. We’re all conditioned. And this is the moment—I just feel this is the moment for us to restore our breath and listen to our lungs and just grieve.
Lisa: That to me also comes back to what you were talking about with paradoxes, that I think as a society, you know, there’s so much stuff about happiness and positive psychology. And you look at Trump as well, and he’s desperate to be optimistic and shuns any—and it’s like we can’t fully embrace joy until we also embrace grief. And I think it’s that, you know, it’s we’re seeing this absolutely in so many things. We can’t—we need to clear space before we can move forward.
Skeena: That’s why I feel it as a gateway, right? Because I feel—I feel like what we’re yearning for, and of course we’re yearning for infinite joy and just—we’re yearning for feeling fully alive, aren’t we? And I don’t see how that happens without addressing, confronting, allowing our grief.
Lisa: In kind of wrapping this up, I wonder on that note if you have any thoughts to share with listeners, any tips for the journey, any words that might offer some kind of guidance, perhaps from your own experience?
Skeena: For me, being with the trees and being in nature is connecting me with my human nature. And I would say that we can take this time—when I’m stepping outside, the sound has changed. Wow, the sound of the earth is changing. And I would say step outside and listen to the change in the sound, and step inside and listen to the change in your sound. And in listening, allow what comes. Allow what comes. And in allowing what comes, know that you are loved. Know that you are loved.
Lisa: Thank you. Wonderful words for us to finish on. Thank you, thank you so much.
Skeena: Thank you, thank you so much.
