People from Hack and Paint on self-management in a remote team

Martina: Hi my name is Martina and I manage the social media for Hack/Paint.

Miglena: Hi everyone my name is Miglena and I’m a 2D junior artist at Hack/Paint.

Stefan: Hello my name is Stefan Doychev and I’m currently leading the development of our game.

Christian: Hello my name is Christian Haniszewski and I’m the lead link of our game project.

Marin: Hello my name is Marin and I’m currently the CEO of Hack/Paint and also writing some code in a developer role.

Lisa: So Marin, to start with could you say something about why you set up Hack and Paint as a self-managing organization?

Marin: I guess the short answer should be maybe out of stubbornness, but the long answer will be that even before we started working together as a team, we were talking about how we would make it possible to work in a self-managed environment because we didn’t want to just create another studio. We wanted to be self-managed since day one, mostly because all of us have worked in a corporate environment before and we have seen some issues that happen when the non-management paradigms are there, and we just wanted to try to build it in a different way.

The way I see it is the management ideas that we see today in companies have been there for like almost a century and they haven’t changed much. So when we started discovering that there are companies that work differently, we saw that maybe there is another way to structure a company and to work together as a team and basically be together as human beings.

Christian: Or if I might add, I will say that you know there’s a lot of artists and developers that have that untapped talent when working under a hierarchy structure. Usually when we’re given tasks, you know we have to follow it in a certain order, but when doing it in a self-managed way they can put in their own passion and ideas and thoughts into it, which in turn puts out a better end result.

Lisa: So in terms of how you’ve been working at Hack in Paint, what would you say in your experience has been really crucial to having it work?

Martina: I would definitely say that communication, transparency, and being true to yourself has been one thing that’s been very crucial for Hack/Paint’s work. If those things break down, that’s when we start having problems.

Marin: Something that was really helpful for us was the examples that we saw in other companies. Basically we were lucky that in a sense when we started one year ago, we could already look at other companies’ examples and how they have done it – what went wrong, what went right – and we didn’t need to reinvent the wheel about self-management. There were already pioneers in that area, I would say, that have shown us some ways of working. So when you have so many examples in front of you, you can see some clear patterns that exist in all of them. And in that sense, we didn’t do anything special; we just made sure we adopt some of those practices and patterns and try them out, see how they fit our team, because of course there is no solution that fits all.

Lisa: It would be really great to hear from you, Martina or Miglena or Stefan, about maybe an example of something, a way of working or your own version of self-management that you found at Hack/Paint that works really well and that you know gives you that feeling like “Oh yeah, this is really working for us, this is really beneficial.”

Martina: I think one of the things that is really essential for helping the self-management side of things work is building relationships between the team members. Because at the very beginning, most of us haven’t actually met in person. So spending a little bit of time to get to know each other – and we met as well in one location in Bulgaria over the summer, which was also a really good way of building relationships and getting to know people and building trust, which is also something that really is quite essential when working in a self-managed way. Because I think it’s important to trust that your colleagues who are also working under that structure, you trust that they’re doing their part as well to make sure that everything is flowing in the right way.

And also for me, one of the things that helped quite a lot is a book that Marin shared with me at the very beginning from David Allen on Getting Things Done, which is just a really good way of structuring your day and all the tasks and all the things that you need to do, and not just in your day – your week, your month, planning ahead and everything that needs to be done. And it’s great when done properly, but it can definitely be a struggle making sure that you think about everything, and there’s no one else to tell you what or when to do it. So making sure that you’ve covered those tasks and covered your plan for the week and for the month to make sure that everything flows for the company, I think is really helpful.

Stefan: Something I might add here is that being in a self-managed company, basically the only person which is deciding the working hours is the person itself. So that’s something, for example, in my work – it’s not about getting into the right mode and after this being productive. I mean, as soon as you get productive, things can happen and continue happening at a really higher speed. So this is not determined by some standard or the hours, and this is really beneficial for me because it’s you and only you deciding what is the best time for you and what is the right thing to do at every single moment. So this is something which is extremely helpful in every self-managed company, I think.

Miglena: And if I might add something in the end, for me personally, as an experience of working in a distributed company – like sort of like Martina said, the human connection when we all meet each other will help to build that work involving transparency and made the communication between the people better. And for me personally, it just kind of showed that I am actually speaking to people and not just, you know, thoughts or just computer screens. And it just helps to get a bit more confidence in sharing it with the others. So and that in itself builds the transparency within the company and helps for a better communication.

Lisa: And a question for all of you then: what have some of the biggest challenges been with self-management? You know, has it been a very different way of working to what you’re used to? And how have you as a team adjusted to and found working in this way?

Marin: In terms of self-management, learning why certain practices exist and why they are important has been hard for sure. I don’t know why is that – some people say it’s because we are so accustomed to not work in this way that it takes a lot of time and practice to actually get it and understand it. And it’s quite weird that you being more human is actually harder than it seems, and we still haven’t learned how to really work and live together as humans, I would say.

And the shift we’re talking about comes mostly from learning how to be with each other, how to communicate better with each other, how to understand the others around you and yourself better. Like for example, I learned more about myself in one year in Hack/Paint than 20 years in the corporate world. And I learned things about me that are not particularly pleasant or nice. So of course it’s hard to accept your pitfalls, because I mean, who wants to hear that? So we prefer to know only the good things about us and we tend to hide the bad things from the team and from ourselves. So it’s about learning to be more vulnerable and open – open about your pitfalls and weaknesses. That has been really challenging but very important.

Christian: And if I can add to that, you know what I found there to be abundant is fear – the notion that you may look bad to your peers or, you know, ask questions. So I mean, self-management I found doesn’t work always for everyone. It works great for certain personality types and others may struggle, but they can both work in a self-managed type of organization – they just need this nudge in the right direction. This fear, this lack of confidence or initiative turns into – in turn hurts like transparency and communication. So that’s what I find to be a big challenge.

Martina: With that just to build on Christian’s point, I think changing habits, because a lot of us have come from these hierarchical structures and big companies. So changing those habits is something – because they’re quite ingrained – and it’s something that takes a lot of time and effort. And a lot for me personally, one of the things that I struggled with is a lot of the time when you’re in a room with people, there’s a lot of feedback from everything – from just from people, from body language, from just the environment itself as well. And that’s something that can be very difficult.

I guess for us it’s more the distributed nature, not necessarily the self-manage side of things, but when you don’t have that feedback, it can be a bit harder to help break down those fears that might be present, and to build up the confidence might take a little bit longer as well.

Christian: Yeah, I mean to add to that, you know most of our communication is either done through having meetings online where at times we do see people’s faces or facial expressions, but a lot of our communication is done through text when we’re talking on Slack. So you know, being in one environment certainly has – like, let’s say an in-person environment is definitely different than what we’re dealing with.

Miglena: If I can add, in a distributed company and self-managed way of working, I think again going back to human connection, just making time to meet all these people if possible really helps to obviously not also help with just communication and transparency. It also helps motivate you to work because now that you know who you’re working with, you no longer just work for a company or for a name or for the product – you work for these people you know who relies on you, and you’re just a bit more motivated to get out of bed and set a schedule for yourself, and everything just flows a bit more smoothly.

Lisa: I’m really curious to know about some of the practices and tools that you use at Hack and Paint. So for example, people in self-managing teams often struggle with decision-making when there’s no hierarchy and no bosses – suddenly have to make decisions together. How does that work in your team?

Marin: I think we also struggled with that at the beginning, mostly because I think there is this weird notion that okay, when you remove the bosses and the hierarchy, like nobody’s boss. But I had to kind of reiterate and like, we had to keep saying no, it’s the opposite – you have to actually – everyone has to be the boss in their role.

So for those that don’t know, we are using Holacracy, and in Holacracy there is the notion of roles. And basically what Holacracy tries to give you is clear transparency and clearness of who is doing what and who is responsible for what. So in your role, you are the decision-maker. And something that really helped us was that we incorporated at some point called the advice process, which you basically have to ask your peers when you want to decide something that concerns them. You simply ask them for advice before taking the shot and taking the decision. And that way it gives you the opportunity to learn new points of view before taking that decision, but also it gives you the initiative to actually take the decision. So it’s kind of both ways – you have to be proactive and humble at the same time.

Christian: And if I can add to that advice process, it allows people to also have a voice in any decision because they can come out and say their point of view, which usually in a typical organization, it’s only allowed to a certain type – a few people. So anyone can give their thoughts, they can voice their concern or their thoughts or ideas on that matter. So it definitely helps with transparency.

Martina: And as well, one of the tools that I find really helps to implement the things that Marin and Christian was saying about Holacracy is Asana. We manage all our projects and tasks and each of the circles through Asana, and everyone – I think it’s just a really good way of making sure everyone’s voice is heard through a task or within a project. And it’s just a really useful tool.

Marin: And I think what was key in some moments where we struggled was basically understanding why – why there are some roles in Holacracy. At the beginning we just adopted Holacracy without really knowing anything about it, and we had to learn as we go. And it seemed weird, I would say, but I think now it’s kind of very straightforward because all the rules that exist in Holacracy are there for a reason. Without understanding what’s the reason behind them, it’s kind of hard to really work in that way. But once you understand them, it’s much, much easier.

Lisa: Can you give an example, Marin?

Marin: Yeah, like you said, the decision-making at the beginning was hard because you’re usually used to work in different ways where the decision is taken by – you know, in the hierarchical model, let’s say. And here the decision power is kind of distributed throughout the whole team.

So I remember there were people who are afraid to ask other people to do some stuff for them, like to do certain tasks, because it felt like you’re their boss or something. Which I think when the team starts to collaborate better is when you understand that you can be the boss and of everyone else, and basically each one of us is the boss in some way. So we started asking each other for help or like, “Okay, can you do this for me? Can you do that for me?” And it didn’t feel like it is a hierarchical relationship anymore. It was like more like peer-to-peer relationship when people start to learn their roles and the tasks that they have to do.

Martina: With an element of confidence as well, and we build the humility between our teammates as well. That allows what Marin was just explaining as well – people asking for help in their role or for specific tasks when they need it. And that defined kind of a clear responsibility, so the people that have their roles knew what they had to do and when they had to get help for something. And then the tasks completed in a much more – in a much easier way as the right people with the right skills are doing them.

Christian: To add to that, I mean the roles in Holacracy – each role has an accountability and a responsibility, and it did take us a while to, you know, act on those two main things that Marin and Martina were saying. So once we got a hang of that, you know, things started happening a lot quicker and it was a lot easier for the communication to come across.

Stafan: Holacracy, it’s tries to explain it – it becomes very, very natural as soon as you understand how everything works. So maybe that’s the fundamental idea in the moment it’s in place, as soon as you learn the basics, everything you do, it seems like you’re doing the right thing because the most logical thing that’s faster, writing in the supported by the Constitution of Holacracy. So it’s not something hard to learn as soon as it’s not the basics, because it all comes down to the nature of ability and then thought the first that we have, it’s usually the right one.

Lisa: So it sounds like from what I’m hearing from you all that Holacracy has helped clarify and really distinguish roles and responsibilities and accountabilities such that it’s helped create an adult-to-adult culture where you can – where leadership is distributed and you can ask each other for help without it feeling like it’s disrupting the culture, without a feeling like you’re the boss of anyone.

Marin: Yeah, that was very well said. The biggest difference in self-management compared to the other way of working is exactly what you said – it’s like adult-to-adult relationship, not adult to child or whatever. So you feel that shift when using those paradigms.

Christian: I will say that it was a huge – it was a big challenge for us in the beginning. It wasn’t easy because we kind of had to unlearn what we’ve been dealing with for such a long time and, you know, working in regular structures out there in the world to now going into this form. So there was a lot of inaction and fear, like I mentioned before, taking on these roles and responsibilities because most of the time we’re used to being adult-to-child type of paradigm. But going adult to adult was a challenge, I have to say. Definitely the element – I think one of the biggest elements is responsibility, and when you’re in that parent-child relationship and in a hierarchical structure, the responsibility lies with someone else.

And once it moves to this structure, the whole – Holacracy and self-managed way of doing things – that it’s your role and that responsibility lies with you. And the fear that Christian mentioned, and some of us have mentioned as well, it’s often in the fear of making a mistake and thinking that you’re going to do something wrong or something that’s not going to be good for the company. And no one wants to be in that position – no one wants to make a mistake.

Martina: I think we will always strive to be – to do things correctly. But I think what we’ve tried to build over the years is the environment to allow for that and to learn from any mistakes that we do make, because that’s how we evolve. And having a safe environment where no one is criticized or made to feel afraid by the fact that that might happen has really helped evolve that as well.

Marin: And that’s why I don’t really like schools, because they teach you to be afraid of making a mistake. And I think if we want to in the future work in in self-managed way, we have to also change how we learn in schools. That’s what I have discovered in the recent years.

Lisa: It’s really interesting that you guys have mentioned, you know, fears and how challenging it can be to be human with one another and really honest with one another. I’m wondering in Hack and Paint, how do you process tensions like that? Or when you notice that you have that fear, or when mistakes happen, for example, how do you deal with those sort of human messy things?

Martina: I think we’re still learning as the process goes along. We’ve tried many different ways to evolve that kind of scenario. We have – there are tensions that can be raised during meetings in Holacracy. We have a channel that can specifically – if someone has a comment or a tension that they’d like to raise.

And I guess as well, we rely on – by building relationships and trust with each other, we rely on the fact that we could go to one another and say, “I’m not sure this was the best way to do something” or “Perhaps we can – next time we should approach this in a different way.” And by building our relationship with each other, it kind of lessens and helps take away – it helps a person take away only the positive and the learning from that, rather than being upset or angry or any other kind of negative emotions.

Marin: And also something we’re trying to do recently is – it’s basically, we have some practice where you understand better the people around you, like you try to admit your pitfalls and weaknesses and to be really open with that, as well as relying on the others to accept them. And it’s still not perfect, but as Martina said, we’re learning. I think just being comfortable now to call out the things that don’t work has been a great improvement.

Miglena: Because it – for me personally, in the beginning it was quite tough. And as a junior especially, if I see something that maybe I don’t think will work that well, it was very hard to just say either to all everyone in the general channel or just the – that specific person involved with the task, just telling them, you know, I don’t think this is going to work or just, you know, share my opinion. So I think just getting over that barrier and that fear of calling out what is not working at the moment, it’s just – it’s a huge step.

Christian: I – to add to that, I mean, we’ve tried to add a lot of layers or methods to, you know, kind of help with tensions. I mean, we have tactical meetings to kind of voice tensions there. You know, if someone’s not comfortable to voice them personally to someone, then, you know, that kind of gets brought out in a meeting there. Or, you know, if the advice process, which was mentioned earlier, that is a place which is kind of – feel safe to voice a tension on something that’s going to be acted upon, you know? So we’ve tried to kind of ease that process for tensions.

And we have a lot of tensions, and it doesn’t – you know, I have to admit, it doesn’t help that most of our communication is with text, because you can’t really – we misinterpret a lot through through the typing and whatnot. You know, when someone has a tension, they’ll write it out, and you won’t – the way one person will read that tension is different how another person reads a tension. So it it is challenging, and we’re still learning how to figure it out in a distributed manner.

But yeah, I mean the beauty of what we’re doing also is if there’s a new method or a new idea on how to help the process, it’s very easy to incorporate it.

Martina: To build on both what Marin and Christian said as well, by knowing each other’s strengths and weaknesses, it helps the rest of the team know how to speak to that person. So when addressing those tensions or when you’re in a situation where you want to call someone out, by knowing how that person is truly is, we can potentially tailor the way that we speak to them so that we know not anger them with a particular thing, will pull on their fears with by saying something in a particular way.

And it just adds to that human layer of consideration that you are speaking to someone who is a peer, as a friend, as a colleague, and you can be more human in the way that you say things to them rather than top-down “You will listen to me” approach. So that’s definitely helped, I think, in the way that we speak to each other.

Marin: And something practical that really helped us was the Tough Leadership training that some of us took, and outside has really been eye-opening in regards to how you communicate to each other and understand each other’s tensions and personalities.

Lisa: And finally, what are some examples of organizations or practices or tools that currently inspire you and that you think might help in your journey at Hack and Paint as you evolve?

Christian: I mean, one thing that we found at a Hack in Paint is that, you know, the bottom line is not the dollar but the person. You know, it’s all about – it’s all about that is your most important asset, right? And working in these other organizations, it’s always about, you know, the money or the bottom line of how much money is being spent on this particular task and whatnot.

And that’s why, you know, working at these companies feels so gray, because it’s – you don’t feel like people care about you or there’s no like passion in what you’re doing. And, you know, I’ve noticed that a lot that these companies, they just don’t want to do or push personal growth. And that’s why it feels so repetitive to work in these organizations where you’re doing the same thing over and over and over. And then, you know, if you want to grow, you have to then fight with politics and try to move up to change your repetition of what you’re doing.

So it’s even as an artist like working in these companies, you will get great at what you’re doing because you’re doing the same thing over and over. But if you want to ask to do something different, it’s so difficult to get approval for something like that. And when working in Holacracy and and Hack and Paint, you can switch from role to role. You can be a painter at one time, and then you can then you could be a 2D artist and another project. And if it’s not working out, then you leave the role or the link will then remove you from it. But you can try things, you can learn new things, and that is something that is so difficult to do in like these typical organizations.

Marin: And what’s strange or counterintuitive is when you allow this distributed way of working – by distributed I don’t mean the location-based distribute but distributed power. So when you spread that power throughout the organization and give each person in that organization the opportunity to do what they think is right, actually the strange thing is that the bottom line also improves.

So that’s something that I have tried to explain to many CEOs of different organizations, and they simply don’t believe it. But but that’s what happens – like when you when you let go, you – if you actually – yeah, you improve the bottom line, you improve the happiness of everyone. It’s like a win-win situation.